Navigating the next “normal” of the future of work

Darryl Wright: [00:00:02] Good afternoon, friends and colleagues, and thank you for joining us on today's webcast. This is a sequential virtual event and EY's People Advisory Services Thinking Ahead series. Now, in our discussion today, we will provide some insightful perspectives on the recently released 2023 EY Work Reimagined Survey, a compilation of responses from more than 17 000 employees and 1 600 employers across 22 countries. The survey results show that no doubt, the pace of accelerated change in the world of work continues. Organizations that prioritize putting humans at the center of all these changes have the definitive edge and competitive edge in the market, and that hybrid work modes are making way for a more flexible working arrangements. On today's webcast, we will discuss the Canadian perspective on this. Now, today in exploring the Canadian perspective and how these results are impacting the future of work trends, the war on talent and why humans are truly at the center in any future workforce and workforce transformation is going to be critical. Here, we will also going to better understand that in the context of managing expectations, both that of the employer and employee. We will explore what levers one can pull on in order to thrive, and we will showcase how we have used the survey and research results to influence the plans and activities with clients. My name is Darryl Wright, and I will be your moderator and co presenter for this webcast. I'm a partner and National Lead for Talent in the Future of Work in the People Advisory Services at EY. My co-presenter and friend today is Andy Leung, a Director in our People Advisory Services practice. Now, over the past four years, Andy and I have represented the Canadian practice on the Work Reimagined Survey and research team globally and have worked with clients across numerous sectors to bring these results to life and translate the data in a practical and impactful manner for clients to build a resilient talent and people plan. Now, as for all our webcasts, we do want to keep them as engaging as possible. There will be a few polling questions to get a sentiment of what the audience is thinking about and what they're trying to solve for. And at the same time, it will steer the conversation in terms of responding to your questions that you put into the chat box. So please, by all means leave us your questions. And we have carved out some time in order for us to focus on your questions. Now, just stepping back a bit, we've conducted a few work reimagined surveys and some research over the last three years to better understand the rapidly shifting landscape of the future of work. In August 2020, we did a first survey coming out right in the middle of the pandemic, where we looked at what were the key headlines and what were the six major shifts and resets that were happening in the work experience as a direct result of the pandemic? In April 2021, we looked at realizing that flexibility was the new norm and that there was the anticipation of the great resignation that it was coming. And in September 2021, where we increased our ability to look across the different areas and looked at how organizations were kind of suffering the commitment issues on flexible working as people started considering coming out of the pandemic and what that would look like for the workplace. Now, probably a key piece of research, which we would be happy to disseminate with, with you is our Humans@Center research that we did with Oxford University, where we looked at those organizations that put humans at the center of their transformation efforts, are 2.6 times more likely to succeed in their transformations than those that don't. And there are six emotional levers and considerations that one needs to plan for and manage in order to lead and manage through and come out a transformation in a sustained and successful manner. In 2022, the key headline coming out of the whole flexible work arrangements was the complexities as it related to enabling a hybrid workforce. And now, we sit in 2023 with the new Work Reimagined survey, where we've looked at employer and employee responses and some of the key themes that come out are a continuation of flexibility and a slight move away from hybrid. But we'll get into that. A balance of power between employers and employees. And as a result, how does that manifest in employee experience, and what does that mean for employer responses to managing those expectations? What is important for employers in the relationship and managing talent, and what is influencing employees, and how do they think about their relationship as it relates to productivity and culture? Key here is the fact that talent liquidity is still a major issue and a challenge. And that retention turnover and the economic volatility is really having a big impact on the workplace as we know it. Now, in this survey, what we did is we looked at how the current people landscape had been upended by a variety of forces, and the employer and employee views were being seen through, being influenced through different world lenses. And if you look at some of the mix of structural versus cyclical forces that were impacting the changes in the workforce, employers, for example, their sentiment was more influenced by cyclical factors, such as the economic slowdown and inflation, which really did draw back the balance of power between employees and employers. We are seeing a massive uncertainty through the geopolitical impact that conflicts are having across the globe, and more and more organizations are being asked to step in and cater and understand through empathetic leadership and through listening, how they would then engage their workforce in a meaningful way to keep them engaged and create that inclusive environment. We are seeing through this cyclical forces fewer new job vacancies, and then we are seeing natural disasters, the impacts that climate change is having on organizations, as well as the lingering effects of the pandemic. And then a very real issue for, a cyclical issue for employers as they consider their workforce and how they bring workforces into physical, cultural space, is the underutilized office space. On the employee side, their experience of the workplace has been way more influenced by some structural forces, and this is creating a new reality for employees. So, we are seeing a demographic shift of a younger workforce that is more dominant in the workplace, an increase in earlier retirements, and just this demographic shift and segmentation requires employers to better understand the demographic shifts that are happening in our workplace. And how do you lead and manage and navigate in an environment that needs to be way more inclusive to those demographic shifts and needs? We're seeing an increase in technological advancements. And the survey that we did focused on generative AI, and we bring some of those insights into this webcast, but not in too much detail. A previous webcast, which is available dealt a lot with the impact that AI is having on the workforce. But we do talk about its influence on how people are thinking about jobs and skills and upskilling, and the nature of the impact that it is having. We are seeing the globalized labor markets, where organizations and employers are seeing their ability to access talent globally, employees and talented employees are using this as a lever to then be able to exercise their power or leverage over employers to say, well, if you need my expertise and my experience and skills, you need to be able to access it globally. I do not need to be in Toronto to be able to deliver a service physically in an environment where I can do it remotely. And we proved that virtual ways of working has had some success. There is a persistent skills change and a need, especially because of the ever shifting change in the customer and consumer landscape, that skills need to keep up with that change. And then a very real issue that we are seeing, which is structurally impacting the way in which employees see and perceive the world, is this flexible and remote working. So, these two forces, and we will discuss some of them a little bit more detail are having a big impact in how organizations and employees in those organizations show up and plan to remain productive and engaged in the workforce. Now, this balance, its a fine balance around how you manage the short-term cost focus. And we are seeing a big efficiency play in productivity play that organizations are looking at around decreased budgets, facing the headwinds, you know, looking at hiring freezes. We are seeing organizations that are reconsidering headcount across sector. And this is impacting the way in which organizations think about facing these headwinds. But at the same time, a competing priority is that we are seeing that there is still a a need to build and access scarce talent and skills within the workplace. So, how do you then balance the short-term cost focus about remaining competitive and productive in the longer term? So, there is also a need to focus our efforts on investing in key places to ensure sustainable and effective organization. And we'll get into where these opportunities lie and how some top ranked organizations are actually thriving in this space by being very discerning about where they spend their limited funds in creating a sustainable and effective organization going forward. Now, what I'd like to do, just to kind of hone our efforts and energy around where you as leaders in your respective organizations and functions are, kind of what are you thinking about? I'd like to go to a polling question, please, where we just want to get a sense of what is occupying your mind? What is an area that your organization is either stuck on? So, if you can just go into the polling section and just consider, you know, given the current environment that we are operating, what are your key workforce challenges? Is it attraction and retention of talent? Is it navigating the complexities of implementing an effective hybrid work model? Is it getting employees back into the office? We've seen a lot of media reports, and there's a lot of emotion around this return to office pressure and then maintaining a culture of collaboration in a hybrid work model. And these are just but four of some of the things that we thought we would get a sense of what is happening in your environment, that is shaping some of the focus, in terms of dealing with, you know, more disruptive world as we face some of these headwinds and balance the short term and longer term needs. In terms of planning in a disruptive world, and I'm just going to focus on looking at where the polling results are coming through. But if we look at the supply of talent, and it continues to shrink, and this is something that I mentioned earlier on, that even though there are cost pressures, even though there is a drive to look at efficiencies, there is still a need to look at how do we invest in a market where there is a shrinkage of skill sets and that the talent continues to shrink in terms of a number of areas? So, there is a drop in a labour force participation rates, and it's forecasted to decline even further in the next couple of years. There is a talent shortage. A known talent shortage, and 31% of businesses expect the shortage of talent and labour in the market to be an obstacle in the near future. And that new talent requirements are evolving. And, you know, the need for new skills is rapidly changing. And that over the next ten years, nine out of ten jobs are expecting a big skills change. And what are we doing about investing in that space? We all talk about upskilling and reskilling, but how much of your, you know, of your investment is actually going into investing in the right skills for the short, medium and longer term? And then we've spoken, and the unemployment rate in Canada is lower than the long-term average of 8.1%. And it remains at 5.7 in October 2023. So, if we look at some of the survey results, and if we could just get back to the survey questions. The overarching drive here is the attraction and retention of talent. And we've seen that as employers think about what the most important issue is for them, it is this, you know, syncs up with what they are thinking about is attracting and retaining talent. And Andy is going to be sharing with us, a little later, what is shaping employees’ factors when they think about their, you know, kind of their expectation around whether they will or won't leave the labour market and what's driving those. You know, navigating the complexities of a hybrid work model and the collaboration. So, three and four is equally split at 22 and 23%. And then, you know, 11%, you know, people are looking at, you know, getting back into the office. So, certainly the survey results mirror what the sentiment is around looking at some of the impacts that retention and attraction is having on building a plan. And we're going to focus, I want to certainly focus on some of those aspects now. So, just how do we bring about a practical way of utilizing the survey results where they are not just, you know, kind of, you know, data, and how do we actually then channel that into helping clients and helping you think differently about managing your organization in a disruptive time? Because there is, and Andy will take us through that shortly. There is a mismatch of certain expectations between employers and employees. But if we just look at this specific focus here is, how do I optimize workforce cost to address cyclical economic conditions. And that's kind of where people are now. And we need to shift to how do we take a strategic and more discerning view of the workforce that considers both elements, cyclical and structural forces, so that you have the workforce you need in the long term. And it's that tension between the two that needs to be managed. One of the areas that that I feel really passionate about, and it's certainly not the most sexy part of a workforce plan, is to focus on looking at where do you invest your time and effort? Where do you invest your limited and finite resources in building a talent plan? And you know, it wouldn't be a presentation from a consulting firm if there wasn't a series of acronyms. This is our 7B model around looking at your workforce through a very different lens. And it all happens in the context of the function that you're in and the broader organization that you're part of, and the context of the sector and the macro forces on that sector. And it really is important that as you think about your talent plan, that a spray and pray approach will not work and will not deliver a discerning focus on your talent and where you need to invest. It really is important to look at where you want to go and buy talent from the external market and where you want to build it. Just that differentiation by understanding the capability set that you have and the capacity requirements that you need, will then frame up where you go and play and where you go and win, much like it is looking at how do you then focus on binding talent in a very volatile environment to then say there are certain roles, there are certain functions and activities that we need to make sure that our talent is binded and that they are either tapped on the shoulder to know that there is a proper retention plan, to make sure that in this kind of the headwinds that people don't leave, the other one is more around borrow. And that's been able to then say, well, all we need to do is transfer skills and have a deliberate capability transfer, and we can borrow those skills. And that's where we look at contingent workforce. And then the composition of your workforce then becomes a critical focus area. This is an area where we look at bridging, where we need to know that we need to either redesign or add new accountabilities to existing roles. We do find that a lot of people talk about upskilling and reskilling, but upskilling is more the bridging. Reskilling is where we really need to be very clear that a skill has become outdated and therefore it needs to be replaced. And this is where being able to understand the capability and competency requirements then enables you to make that and bridge that gap. And then there's the other one around balancing. And this is where you either move or transfer talent internally to changing talent needs. Or we do see some of the efficiency plays. What we are seeing is the whole technology shift. And that technology shift is where we are looking at the ability to address some of these challenges through generative AI and looking at AI, where we look at machine learning, where we can take some of those routine activities and tasks. One of the areas that we didn't really focus on is in the generative AI space. Organizations are doing a lot of research. There's a lot of piloting, there's a lot of reviewing what the impact that GEN AI will have on the workforce. There are a couple of pointers to remember as we look at what the impact that GEN AI is having. There is a augmentation around the activities and productivity elements as it relates to the impact that GEN AI is having now, because there's a lot of focus on GEN AI, employers have a positive, more positive outcome or positive perception of the impact that employees. That's the first thing. Secondly, there is a need for organizations to invest in upskilling and reskilling so that people better understand, employees have a better understanding of GEN AI. But even with all this focus, there is still a need beyond just the understanding and appreciation of the augmented impact that GEN AI will have is that you still need to build those new roles. You still need to build those new skills in order to succeed going forward, and to be able to then translate some of those cyclical as well as the structural plans into a more sustained, longer-term impact. I'm now going to hand over to Andy to chat about how do you then deal with winning the hearts and minds of our workforce in this disruptive environment that we that we are working on. But keep in mind that we do need to be very discerning about our talent plan. And some of these perspectives of winning the hearts and minds will feed directly into that space. Andy.

Andy Leung: [00:21:00] Great. Thank you, Darryl. So, as Darryl mentioned, the next part I would like to share with everyone, in terms of like in based on our latest survey, you know, what are employees looking for? You know, yes, talent shortage is still top of mind for a lot of us. Then how can we be more competitive and making sure that we are reflective in terms of the latest sentiment of our workforce? So, one thing to highlight, you know, yes, we do see there's probably easing in terms of talent shortage with the cyclical. But from an employee general talent market standpoint, are they realizing the sentiment. Yes. We see that there's some reduction in terms of employees’ willingness to quit, as you can see from the survey result here, between 2022 and 2023, we do see a 5% drop in terms of employee willingness to quit because, of course, the cyclical situation, etcetera. However, this is still comparatively higher comparing to like 2021. And when we're looking in terms of is the downturn reducing employe likeliness to quit. Yeah, we do ask in terms of percentage of agree or disagree. Yes, there is a bit of like 50% from employees saying that yes, it's impacting them, but that's still 20% in terms of not. So yes, the cyclical situation is a certain extent creating changes in terms of employee sentiment and quitting, but it is definitely not to the earliest stages in terms of, oh yeah, they're really staying, like people are still a little bit looking. Obviously with the recent changes, this continues to evolve, but from a structural and long-term stand, like we should be still considering in terms of like careful on finding the key talents that we need. So, one thing unique from our EY study this year is we're introducing something called a EY segmentation analysis. So, what does it mean? Is that by our academic research, we have identified seven different critical indicators of success that show that where our workforce or our employees is, consider what in the level of thriving. So, if you refer to the left-hand side of the chart, you will see that those are the seven items. This includes things like leadership and teaming, DE&I skills and ways of working. So, by the grouping of these seven and the results, we have identified four different segmentations of workforce. So, how we want to segment our workforce? We name them the thrivers, the strivers, the survivors and strugglers. So, by the name you may quite obvious to can tell that the more to the left hand side, the thrivers are typically people have a much better positive perceptions around these seven indicators. The more to the right then is usually more negative perceptions. So, by looking at this we see that in generally speaking we have about like 50% of Strivers. There's a high representation also similar like close to 50 for Survivors and Strugglers. That is from the employee sense. But interesting to find out that the employee is actually seeing much lower, like because the employees interpreting the employees are typically still in the thrive and the survive ends a majority of this in a strivers perspective. So, in this slide we do want to show that yes, there's actually different segmentation in approach in how EY is seeing it. The amount of people being positive. Yeah around 50/50 on these critical indicators of success from an employee standpoint. However, there's actually a close to like a 20% delta between employers and employees to think about where the workforce sit in, the level of status of their thriving sentiments. So, in addition to these types of employees and employers variation towards how they agreeing or disagreeing with these type of indicator of success. In our study, we also look in terms of asking employees and employers on the general optimism or positive around the different approaches. So, like there are three main group of approaches that we have compared. One is change in transformations. That is where we're asking both employees and employers on the perception whether they feel the change in transformations are being positive ways of working. This include like where the workload is balanced, where they have the ability to innovate, leadership and approaches, and DE&I, such as where they feel trusted and empowered. So, surprise but no surprise, we continue to see that there's an employee deficit in terms of like the optimism against all these types of like working experience components or approaches. We are seeing like an average around 20%. So, generally speaking, we see that employers are much more optimistic on how the people are feeling about these important ways of working and employee generally 20%. So, you can feel that, hey, sometimes we feel good, but there could be general misconceptions or differences from what employee feel. So, making sure that we need to face the truth sometime is employee perception is the truth, not just on a employer perspective, because those are the people who are dealing with these. And furthermore, to understand about the employee sentiment, one thing we have done in study this year is employee sentiment is so multifaceted, like the typical approach is like whether we ask about whether employee are engaged. However, for this year's study, we further segregated employee sentiment into three main group. Three main type of sentiment. One is what are people most concerned of? What are attracting them to new jobs or making them to stay? And last but not least, what is most impactful for them to thrive? So, in this slide, we're showing in terms of the first part of the sentiment, what are people concerning? So yes, in the last two slide we talked about employee employer perceptions to what's the different employee experience or component indicator of success. This slide we specifically look in terms of asking them what are the top concern. So, no surprises. And we seen from last year's study pay has been the top concern for employees. And this continues to be a top risk or top concern for 2023 is about employee compensation levels and increases. Just want to highlight one thing that has been slightly different is actually the addressing burnout and employee well-being. While that has in 2022 also a top concern. Now it is actually at a much higher-ranking level. So 34%, which is very close to in terms of compensation. So, as a reflection, we see that employees, while pay is still a concern from moving from 22 to 23, there's actually a increasing attention towards burnout and employee well-being as a factor that they're concerned about. And just add to this status or these statistics, we see that very aligned. We talk about a lot of misalignment between employee employer. Now this is a very aligned topic, 78% versus 84% that they feel like there's a need, a moderate and extensive change to rewards. So yes, we see that from a concern sentiment standpoint, pay, total rewards is continuing a top of mind for our employees. And even from an employer perspective on thinking what they need. Another sentiment that we're trying to get into, is about what attracting people to a new career, employer, or job. So, such as like whether they would attract it or whether his attention. So, continues to resonate with what they're concerning. It is about the better overall well-being programs and opportunity to increase total pay. These two continues to be as a concern, but also a major factor towards people are selections on their new job or whether they want to stay within the current company. But reflecting more in terms of here is also the delta between the employer and employee, in terms of the well-being programs. Like the employer are really emphasizing on the well-being program, while there may be still a little bit higher in terms of employee expectations on pay. And then another thing that is enhancing our difference in terms of the employer employee is about the job and career advancement. Yes, there is like general expectations on immediate hygiene[MH1]  factors on pay and well-being. They still look for longer term job and career too. So, this is another data point to think about what the concern and about what impact in terms of selecting the new job. While selecting new jobs or concern is quite consistent on the line, when we're thinking about what makes people thrive, then we're seeing a little bit of differences. Sorry. So, when we're thinking about employees just staying, that is good. Employing concerning this is good. But if employees are just staying but not thriving, then that may often mean that you're having a group of unproductive or not at the maximum productivity of workforce. So, in this case, we look in terms of what factors make people thrive. Then we see a slightly different, it's no longer well-being or pay, but it is about learning and skills. So, for employees, of course for them to make them stay, pay them. But if have employees within organization and ask them to thrive, you need to pair your pay with learning and skills too, because you want employees not just to stay, but making to thrive. And you need to address both sentiments. And in our study, we show that yes, learning and skills is where you can take a workforce to the next level instead of just having a workforce.

Darryl Wright: [00:30:26] Andy. Thanks. If we look at taking all those data points around thriving, you mentioned the difference in employee, you know, kind of segments in the study and how we've carved up those organizations that pull on those levers that are, that enable them to thrive. But in terms of addressing the different employee sentiments, you know, how do I tackle the experience elements? You know, much like I mentioned earlier on that, you know, it's really important to have a discerning and focused data driven talent plan that addresses those, you know, seven B's. How do I build an engaging value proposition and experience in an integrated manner that addresses the different employee sentiments that you've raised?

Andy Leung: [00:31:15] Yeah, absolutely. I think for us, when we work with organization thinking about EVP, you know, it is important to understand that EVP is not just, how should I say, a tagline. It is much more important. It is a lot of organization think about the value proposition, just like the customer value proposition. Shareholder value proposition. Those are anchored to was what can make you different, how you differentiate from your competitors, peers, and be having that competitive edge in your war for talent. And when we think about employee value proposition is also served as an employment promise. You know, this is, you are sharing in terms of what you can offer to your talent, but what can you expect from your talent, too? So more than just thinking about a physical contract, sometimes an EVP is your psychological contract to your employees, and that should anchor. Since it is a psychological contract, you should make sure that you deliver on it so you just don't talk the talk and walk the walk. And another thing is like employee value proposition. Often, we found organization is like, oh something we define, and then it is something in the bottom drawer gaining dust. So, in our EY framework and working with clients, we also proposed an importance on having this, as Darryl mentioned, was we are consulting with no acronym. So, here is now another one we call the free E model. So, where you have the employee value proposition, employer brand and employee experience. The important thing about this free E is that anchoring an EVP the entire free E, the all free E components should be all integrated and synergized. So, your employee value proposition will serve your anchor. While you have to write proper employer brand to making sure that you can do the marketing things, to making sure that those are communications that is well understood so employees can recognize those employee value propositions, and they can actually appreciate the employee experience you got. And then of course, for the employee experience, you do need to make sure that when you design your experience that is resonating with your employee value proposition. So, when you're telling people that, oh, come to join us, our employee value proposition is giving you a chance to innovate and work on new thing, making sure that the employee experience align to it, allowing them, enabling them with the right autonomy and empowerment could be the critical principle for your employee experience design. So, thinking about your talent strategy, the six B or the seven B, how can you make sure that these elements are enabling your buy or enabling in terms of reflecting in your bill? Those are important in terms of how we think about your employee value proposition and making sure that employee sentiments are incorporated when we are thinking about your talent management too. Another thing just want to highlight, as the survey has indicated, the importance of well-being and total rewards. So, just want to spend a quick minute to talk about the concept of total reports. So, I think this is not something very new. A lot of people think about total rewards is on the right-hand side as compensation and benefits. That is typically within total rewards the world. But in EY perspective, there's two important distinctions. One is what is a value based total rewards that we need to think about a well-being. So yes, we can talk about compensation, benefits or even development or environment. As you can see on the right-hand side of the slide talking about the components. But the most important thing though they are just vehicles. But what kind of rewards should be addressing, should be thinking back in terms of the well-being of our people. So, in order to have a total reward to enable the proper well-being, we are, EY is working with clients to introduce what we call the well-being framework or total rewards framework. That's addressing the well-being that seeing people as a whole. So, we are thinking in terms of like people well-being will be covering fourfold, financial well-being, physical well-being, social well-being, and emotional well-being. So, it is important that when we think about total rewards, these types of well-being are being addressed because we should be treating every human being as a whole, instead of just focusing on single element. Obviously, like understanding in terms of like the appreciation will take time, but making sure that a wholesome considerations are important nowadays when we're thinking about rewards. So, with that, we want our Total Rewards program to be empathetic and personalized and understood, transparent, dynamic and digitally accessible. Those are all factors to making sure that people can appreciate your well-being. So, making sure that, like your total rewards are able to anchor and being recognized. Utilize the full suite. And but of course, the last not least is understanding the aligning with your business initiative and strategy. So, when we think about total rewards there's the employee side but the employer side. But it is overall addressing the sentiment that we've been showing earlier from our survey. It is the broader understanding of total rewards. And the linkage to well-being will be very critical in the future states of thinking about winning your employees heart and mind. So, here we would like to be a bit more interactive. We want to introduce another polling questions for everyone here. So, we talk about like compensation has been like very consistent and well understood in terms as an important criteria, in terms of thinking what kind of factors that impact attraction and retention or even like general concern. So however, we do want to seek a little bit of insight from the audience today too, is like, do you feeling the same against like the survey results? Do you feel that they burn out? And lack of well-being also is a critical challenge that you should be prioritized? Answer is quite straightforward. So yes, it is a critical factor. No there's other factors that are more crucial or there's not sure. Appreciate your inputs and look forward to sharing the polling results with everyone. While I'm waiting for the polling results, we do want to move on to next sections, that we talk about flexibility the new norm. So, we did mention that flexibility is actually a topic that has been brought up even at the beginning of the pandemic. But is it the new norm? Or is it still the new norm is actually something that we continue to debate, and it's still a very hot topic in the market. So, continues from these studies. Oh, just sharing back in terms of the polling result. As recall, yes, it is a critical factor is answer A, and we have 76% of audience saying yes, this is a critical factor is like second and third 12% saying that this is not a critical factor and 15% is not sure. So, thank you for everyone is yes, it is absolutely something re-endorsement that we appreciate and yes, continues to emphasize the importance of well-being and hopefully what we share on our framework is something can be fruitful for your thinking. Now, continues on the flexibility work. So, as mentioned, we the flexibility continues to be a key topics that has been discussed in the last 2 to 3 years. And this is something that, despite the changes in a lot of conversations about return to office, etcetera, like from our survey, we still see that flexibility is still a hot topic. So, we in this study, we look in terms of like questions. Where did the organization is committed in providing appropriate level of flexibility and ongoing lasting basis that is feasible. So, from the study, we feel, we see that both employees and employers are agreeing to a certain extent while there's about a 30% gap. So, despite the 30% gap, we see that employees are still quite positive, while employers are very that extreme. So, with that 30% delta, that is definitely some perceptions or expectation management. But generally speaking, I think the concept of flexibility is still agreeing while employee could be asking a bit more. Another thing we did ask is, of course, flexibility is something that has been pushed, such as flexible work location. Now, another question is, while policy has been set up, are they really following? Are they really agreeing that they are adhering to it. So, again we see that there's like a 20 plus 20% plus in terms of delta of how employees or employees feeling about like where the policy has been being followed. While employees are much in the higher end, employees is at the lower end, but there's a general positive sentiments. Like, however, I think there's continues to be questions and challenge from the employees in terms of thinking about what is the right flexibility status should be. Now again, you know, this may be more like a refreshment or re-endorsement, but we have been asking in terms of like why people want to be in the office or worksite. I'm sure a lot of us may not be seeing surprises, but we're seeing that being having that in-person, physical, in-person contact, staying socially connected is still number one. Now very close to things such as collaborative colleagues, etcetera. But more to this later is like in our study, we also ask in terms of hey, if people are expected to be socially connected, is our real estate or is our space actually enabling that? So, part of our study, not having to show the statistic here, but part of the study, we are also looking in terms of like class A, B, C, real estate, and the corresponding impact towards in terms of like people perceptions around flexibility. So, like class A is talking about like offices like right at the downtown in the prime location, B is probably a bit further out to the rural areas. And C is like probably a bit more distance. The interesting finding is that the location, in terms of the class of real estate is actually not a major factor impacting people. So, it turns out that you have offices in in downtown as a class A actually doesn't create a higher level of perceptions towards your flexibility or even other sentiments, etcetera. However, it is more towards like how you define your real estate space. So, it's not it's not the traditional location, but it's actually how you have form. Your location actually has the biggest impact. So, the question is, yes, people are still looking for socially connected, but it cannot be rightly assumed is because of the physical location or where it is or asking people just to do so. It is important in terms of what you invested, in terms of making the space that actually enable that social connections. And just to make sure that we don't forget about employees, what is the concern? So, that's why we see that when we're asking people in terms of like, what are the challenges for them to be being productive in the workplace, balancing work and life, the commute, distractions has been still top of mind. Just to share a little bit in terms of like from another local finding of what is the anchor day. So, typically we have organizations having a hybrid model. We have certain anchor days or recommending their employees to be in office in certain day. Traditionally, we see that the anchor days has been happening between Tuesday to Thursday. And naturally, speaking with hasen[MH2]  in the past is, oh, I want a Friday to work from home. That feels like more natural, like extended long weekend. But more and more, we have found that the organizations are trying differently, such as like having their anchor day on Monday or Friday is exactly addressing the concern here, which is to commute, especially in some of the clients who are working have an office downtown because imagine the commute on those Tuesday and Thursday when everyone back to the office, meaning on those the commute are extra challenging. So, like some organizations are actually adopting on a Monday and Friday anchor day, just making sure that these types of concerns are being addressed. So, just want to highlight this. Yeah.

Darryl Wright: [00:43:41] Andy, just to pile on to what you're saying as it relates to the benefits of being in the office. And obviously our research shows all these the benefits and some of the detractors from coming into the office, EY does partner with, like many other organizations, Cleveland Clinic. And what they did is, they really did a great piece of research around the benefits of mental, social, financial, wellness, of coming into the office. And if you can't get, you know, kind of, you know, copy of that, that research, it does really highlight the benefits of why it is important to advocate for some personal time and connection with colleagues in the working environment. I always say that remote working was a unnatural, successful experiment because as human beings, we were never meant to work in isolation for extended periods of time. And I do think we have enough data points now to then be able to say, well, how do we then address this issue of working in a more flexible environment? And Andy, that's maybe the next question is, you know, we all talk about remote working and I'm even hearing a narrative shift away from, well, how many days are you going to work in the office to, well, how many days are you going to work from home? As if there's a kind of an expectation that the balance of the days are in the office, and that there is a smaller period of time spent at home. So, how do we select and enable the right hybrid ways of working in order to be flexible?

Andy Leung: [00:45:16] Yeah. So, I think the key thing is like we talk about flexibility, but important to consider flexibility is not just about location. Yes, we talk about onsite, hybrid, remote. There's typically questions about flexibility about location. But in order to make your location selection to Darryl's point in terms of oh, how many times spent in a day or how many days spent in the office. Sometimes it's just more to equal, every day is the same. So, like what we're seeing, organizations are start embracing the concept of flexibility in a much broader manner in four different types of flexibilities. So, top left to Traditional, which is more like flexible locations, but introducing greater complexity or possible combination is flexibility of time, which is the schedule here, such as like organizations are introducing alternative schedules, condensed workweek, flexible start and finish date. So, those things can be combined together with your choice of like working the office day or work from home. So, one times that we see one organization is like, hey, I'm still having a 40-hour work week. But however, I'm for the days that is spent in office, they are actually saying that, hey, those days cannot may not be eight hours working day can a bit longer because we want to make sure that we celebrate, we actually embrace and leverage the time most. But while when you're working from home that is actually can be a condensed in terms of like, sorry not condensed, but can be like a shorter hours work week. And even from the consideration is like, hey, from a condensed workweek standpoint, does it mean that, hey, I just work four days a week and then of course, three days I'm in the office, just one extra days? So again, thinking about the flexibility we need to step out of our general comfort zone, thinking about just the physical location. It is broader. In addition to, sorry, in addition to time, there's two types of flexibility. We see organization also embracing. One is about flexibility employment, such as like the adoptions in terms of part time, seasonal, job share, contingency, gig workforce. So, what happened is like they also introducing this type of flexible employment arrangement. So, for example, if an employee, okay I'm living far so I cannot really be in an office that many days, but you really need then. Yeah, probably I'll make you become a part time situation where you only work three days a week. And on the other side, in addition to being employment of flexible, organizations are also introducing what we call a flexible organization, such as the concept of agile organization, etcetera. What does it mean is like, they are they are actually reshuffling in terms of the tasks and etcetera. So, in the old days, you may say that as a recruiter you are expecting to conduct like in person physical interview, but while all the other job and job posting and etcetera are technically you can done offline, you don't need to be in the office to do your job posting, job description, design and everything. So, what happened is organizations are even being more agile and flexible in terms of how they structure the role, such as like if we have a bunch of recruiters, we may do a further segregation or splitting in terms of role, be a bit more agile, so not fixated with every single role the same, but focusing in terms of the individual circumstances and the critical capabilities. So, in order to address the possibility of flexibility of hybrid etcetera, organizations are trying to expand on the rhyme on other flexibility. Like, and just want to emphasize is that sometimes with pandemic, I think flexibility of location has been like the spearhead. The thing about flexibility, but that doesn't need to stay always the starting point. Like we do see organizations when pandemic are over. General concept of flexibility need to be refreshed and challenged, and then that can be further enhanced and utilized for a broader sense instead of just thinking about location flexibility. But overall, we do see organizations embracing broader flexibility to making sure that the overall people understanding, or experience of flexibility is not limited and can be better addressed.

Darryl Wright: [00:49:34] Excellent. Thank you, Andy. And certainly, before we get into some of the questions that I hope you all have for us is if I just pull it all together and what you've heard is certainly the war for talent continues. Despite the slight shift in power from employees to employees this year, and organizations are recognizing the paucity of skill, talent and trying to balance the short-term pressures, like cost against the long-term investment in talent and technology. You know, the message here is be deliberate about where you put that investment in. And there is still a significant gap between employer and employee perceptions around the readiness to change, ways of working, and leadership DE&I and begging the question, if you know, how long will that gap take to be closed and bridged? And thirdly, you know, whilst the likelihood of quitting has decreased in the face of economic slowdown in some headwinds, pay does remain top of mind for employees. And employees, and employers agree that a total rewards overhaul is due. Fourthly, you know, whilst there is agreement that there is a need to invest to keep up with evolving technology, and I mentioned Gen AI employers need to reconsider their perception on training for, you know, Gen AI and the allied skills associated with it. And then lastly, in the current age of hyper disruption, organizations must empower their workforce through the upskilling and reskilling initiatives. And a key focus on developing internal talent is crucial to building a sustainable workforce. We live in an increasing, you know, the old adage of Vuca world volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. But, you know, I'd like to add two other areas. It's also networked and it's highly stressed. And our role as leaders, one of the roles as a leader is to create some level of certainty in an uncertain, disruptive time. And this goes the same to being in charge of your workforce. Be deliberate, get ahead of the trends, plan for it, and be deliberate in as far as you are able to invest in the right areas that that manage those cyclical and forces around and structural forces. And I'm going to see whether there's any questions here. And thank you for your time. I'm just going to go and see if there are any questions. Andy, question here. In your experience, what is the sentiment around what you're seeing in the marketplace around this return to office? There's seemingly a, there's tension between enforcing a return to office policy versus nudging and encouraging people to come to the office. How would you describe the differences and the benefits of those two approaches?

Andy Leung: [00:52:31] Yeah. Interesting question because I think there's like to Daryl alluded to like when we look in terms of like general approaches, there's like three of what Daryl, you mentioned are the two critical, one when it's been dating[MH3] , one is more like encouraging and value based. I think we have seen the value based in terms of nudging people to go into the office as a very initial approach that most organizations adopted. However, there has been a general result or reaction, seeing that, hey, this value and nudging approach has not been really achieving the level of return to office that most of the executive has gone for. So, that's why I think organizations are trying to start introducing a bit of mandatory approach to get to the expected outcomes in terms of the amount of occupancy or the amount of people into the offices. But technically speaking, I think that is a direction, because we're seeing the value base has not been creating the impact that has been expected. But however, I want to also flag is that the general sentiment, of course, is moving from a encouraged base to a mandatory base. That is definitely some sentiment in terms of emotional time to accept. So, when we see organizations trying to shift from more like a value based to our, let's say, a mandatory base understanding of this need, but we do want to emphasize that don't forget about the value. Yet it is important when we say that, hey, where it is important for organizations to mandate something. They also need to make sure that, hey, the purpose of the why we want to mandate it. Because understanding after all like we have experienced great success and some not great, but some form of success and general expectation in terms of this is workable. So, while for organization mandating, we should not forget about the value asset or the value components to what's in terms of this return to the office. And last but not least, just want to highlight there's another typical approach that has been adopted in the early stage is actually rewarding people to be coming into the office. So, different type of stipends or like, oh, like giving a ghost off or for teams that has the most occupancy but that has actually has dropped. Like, like we see that while organization could be mandating or value encouraging, like organizations are really not doing or dropping in terms of like the reward-based type of encourage reward-based type of return to office approach.

Darryl Wright: [00:54:58] Thanks, Andy. So, just before we close and if there are more questions that you think of post this webcast, please feel free to email us. This survey does cover a broad range of topics. We have distilled the Canadian data, and it is cross-sector. Now some of these examples and data points, you know, you might think have got no relevance to your sector. If you do need an area of focus on sector focus, please reach out to either myself or Andy. Our contact details are will be available in the recording and in the transcripts of this of this webcast. Or you can reach out to your to your EY representatives. I do see another question that's come through here. Are there metrics around increased turnover for organizations that take a mandatory approach for returning to the office? I would say it's probably too early to tell. What we are seeing is, and I think Andy did discuss around the adherence to the return to office policies. And there is a disconnect. You know, employers think there is less of a adherence than employees. And we are seeing anecdotally where there has been a mandate to come into the office four days a week. I think people are averaging kind of 2 to 3 days. So, that's the first thing. The other one is most organizations, or many organizations have when they've gone through their identification of work modes. For example, in workday, people have been either identified as fully remote or hybrid or in the office by virtue of either self-selection or the type of work they do. And one could now see what the impact would be from a metrics perspective, we did in the previous year’s use a demographic index around 24 demographic indexes, where we then helped clients with their ability to determine where they would be at risk if they went and said, let's get everyone back into the office for a period of time. Which of those areas in the employee segmented areas would be at most risk, and where would they then need to go and apply an intervention from a change perspective or manage the talent fallout? So, there are ways and means of dealing with it, but certainly the normal employee listening tools can be then used to to determine when and if a mandatory approach is having an increase on talent exodus in organizations. And so, you know, look out for mail from us in the next few days with the recording of the session and our contact details. And please, you know, kind of there's a short survey that's going to pop up momentarily. And if you can just kind of give us your thoughts and insights, it really does shape up how you respond to that and bring you, you know, more insights and relevant information that you can be impactful in your area and, you know, reminder as well. The next webinar in the Thinking Ahead series will be in the new year. And we will continue to explore these trends and insights and topics that are important to you that are influencing the people agenda. A big shout out to Andy and the team. And if any of you want to access some of the survey results or any of the documents, we made reference to, please do so. And thank you once again for taking the time to join this discussion. Have a great day. Happy holidays and Merry Christmas to you all.