Energy Drivers – How can we design plastic materials to be more sustainable?

00:00:00 - 00:00:58

Lance Mortlock

Welcome to our next episode of the Energy Drivers podcast. I'm Lance Mortlock and I'm your host of today's discussion with Rocky Vermani, the Senior Vice President of Innovation and Sustainability at NOVA Chemicals. Throughout our series, we invite Canadian energy and industrial leaders to discuss key issues, provide insights and ask challenging questions. The 20th and the 21st centuries have been dubbed as the Plastics Age. In certain applications, this material has become irreplaceable. However, with changing regulations and environmental concerns, perhaps it's time to look at how plastics could exist in a more sustainable world. Today's guest will shed a light on such opportunities. Rocky, thank you for joining our podcast. Super happy to have you here.
 

00:00:58 - 00:01:02

Rocky Vermani

Well, thanks for inviting me, Lance. Absolutely glad to be here.
 

00:01:02 - 00:01:11

Lance Mortlock

So, as usual, let's begin the episode with a small introduction. Can you tell us more about Nova Chemicals and your role in the organization?
 

00:01:11 - 00:04:32

Rocky Vermani

Absolutely. So NOVA Chemicals is a North American company, with operations in Canada and the United States. We are the largest petrochemical company in Canada and make ethylene and polyethylene and are among the top five producers of these in North America. We have a global employee base of about 2,500 employees, most of them being in Canada. We are headquartered here in Calgary and have a commercial presence in the US, Europe and Asia. Our Canadian manufacturing facilities are located in Alberta and Ontario, and our US operations are in Louisiana. We are actually also in the process of constructing our first mechanical recycling facility in Connersville, Indiana. We also have two world-scale research and development facilities located right here in Calgary. We produce about 140 different grades of polyethylene, and are continuously adding to that list, especially as we bring new facilities online and also expand our recycled polyethylene product line. These materials are extensively used across value chains in our day-to-day lives, from protecting your food, and keeping your medical equipment sterilized, to recreational equipment that kind of get us all outdoors and living active lifestyles. Polyethylene is one of the most widely used due to its performance attributes. The products that we make span a fairly large application pool and both what we call the flexible and rigid applications. Just as an example, our flexible applications will be something like food packaging or hygiene films, shrink and stretch wraps, e-commerce packaging, protective packaging, which everybody is quite accustomed to now. Medical packaging, trash bags and liners and many more that come to mind. On the on the rigid side, you can think about industrial drums, caps and closures, toys, bottles, kayaks, waste containers. So, even things like artificial turf. So we cover a fairly broad range of applications. My own journey of almost 35 years now, Lance, in the industry has been fairly extensive and kind of global in nature and touched almost all parts of our value chain. So currently, as a member of NOVA executive team and the Senior VP for Innovation and Sustainability, I have the responsibility for helping or really guide our organization’s journey on sustainability and innovation, you know, which are, of course, in our minds closely linked. Using innovation to develop new solutions focused on reshaping plastics through either new properties as well as kind of ease of recycling, offers really big opportunity and gets me really excited. So I think the future is going to be fascinating.
 

00:04:32 - 00:04:55

Lance Mortlock

That's certainly very impressive. NOVA’s define purpose is to reshape plastics for a better, more sustainable world. How exactly can we make plastic materials more sustainable? How do we evolve, I guess, plastics to make them more circular. Can you unpack that a little bit?
 

00:04:55 - 00:09:09

Rocky Vermani

It will take some heavy lifting. We truly feel that we are in the best position to kind of contribute on this front. Now thanks to our history in innovation primarily. Not many, many people realize, but NOVA has been a leader in innovation within Canada's petrochemical industry, dating back to our inception, almost 50 years ago. So if you think about it, forward-thinking of Alberta's former Premier Peter Lougheed, got us into the business. And since then, we've prided in pioneering technologies that create real solutions for our customers. And I firmly believe that this drive to innovate is going to be the essential ingredient for us to succeed in our aspiration. So on the whole part, that's what you what you kind of wanted me to talk about is when we look at sustainable plastics for the future, we kind of look at it from two different angles. So the first is around how we design materials so that they have the potential to be more easily recycled. And the other is around how we can make the materials that are available for recycling more reusable without losing their performance integrity. So when it comes down to designing for potential recyclability, a transition from what we call the multi-material to mono-material packaging will be the key. While we've already demonstrated this in some applications you know a lot more science is on going to really support this effort. You know every material in a package is there for a performance or economic purpose and migration to mono-material will need to deliver on both of these attributes. So both of them have to go hand in hand. Now we certainly believe that's doable, and we've already migrated some packaging, for example, used for either pet foods or flower packaging from multi-layer multi-material to multi-layer mono-material. So, many more structures are continuing to be constantly worked on and refined and I'm pretty darn sure that that will have a lot more in the market in short order. So, in the same way, our portfolio of high-performance resins enables our customers to create all polyethylene products and packaging, that has the potential to be recycled multiple times without compromising the performance. So, all this is truly, really backed by our proprietary technologies. A great example of the success in achieving this is when we launched a few years ago, industry's first biaxially oriented polyethylene resin to produce pellets. So, generally it's been a domain of alternate materials. These are the kind of the films that you see in grocery stores, keeping your meat, your poultry, your cheeses, your baked goods fresh and safe to consume. So, switching from that kind of a multi-material to a single material, has been, an ongoing pursuit and continues to demonstrate a fairly good success. But also let me tell you about our newest portfolio of products, which are branded as Syndigo polyethylene. Now Syndigo recycled polyethylene, which is made entirely from post-consumer content to provide our customers with circular solutions that encourage waste and emissions reduction. What's even better is that many of our resins, you know, produced using our proprietary solution technology can be combined with these Syndigo rPE products, which help our customers achieve their recycled content goals and then create more circular and sustainable end-use products while not compromising on the performance at all.
 

00:09:09 - 00:09:17

Lance Mortlock

This is, a lot of this work is what your R&D centre is focused on here in Calgary, right?
 

00:09:17 - 00:09:32

Rocky Vermani

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean we have over 200 individuals working in our R&D organization. And then part of the teams are focused on really developing the next generation of products, which are coming from the foundation of this recycled polyethylene.
 

00:09:32 - 00:09:46

Lance Mortlock

I actually never realized, Rocky, how big that R&D group was. That's pretty substantial, and I'm imagining a lot of very, very smart people at the cutting edge of science.
 

00:09:46 - 00:10:47

Rocky Vermani

It absolutely is, right? I mean, I said that there is number of people with PhDs and Master's degrees and wonderful labs and they know, they love playing with their molecules. But we've got two aspects of it here in Calgary, right? One is what you call the applied research side. So, doing process and catalyst chemistry. And then there is a whole centre, a different building that is focused on kind of the customer applications. So we have in our facilities, large-sized equipment that a customer would typically use to make finished products. So what we are able to do is, use our resins along, bring our customers in, they come with their technical problems or solutions that they're trying to develop. And they can do that in our line. And in doing so, they're not effectively, you know, holding up their own commercial lines. At the same time, they can experiment and develop new products and that's been kind of, think of it as an innovation studio almost. And it has been a very successful concept for us.
 

00:10:47 - 00:11:16

Lance Mortlock

It's very interesting. One question. We, I mean, we talked a little bit about recycled plastics are really at this growth stage with numerous opportunities available across a variety of industries and the innovation that goes with that. What are the general adoption rates of recycled plastic materials right now, Rocky? Where are we at? Have we made a lot of progress in the last few years?
 

00:11:16 - 00:14:55

Rocky Vermani

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And one that kind of, you know, continues to evolve. There is an increasing demand for recycled plastics. When we look at our internal estimates are that the circular polyethylene, which includes both the mechanical and the advanced recycling-based polyethylene, is expected to have a growth rate of about 10% by 2030. Which you, when you consider it or compare it to the normal polyethylene will be probably around at about 1.5% to 2% in the same time frame. So the achievability, of course, of such a growth rate will depend on the regulatory landscape and all the associated economics with it. But when you look at the major retailers and packaging companies, they're all making commitments on recycled contents being a percentage of their packaging and other product portfolio and are really committing to ensuring that their products can be fully recycled. So, the type of companies that I'm talking about are big companies, all of them are kind of focused on these types of mandates on recycling now. Our most recent survey, which was last year, tells us consumers are starting to lean towards sustainable packaging with about 46% of the respondents that they would select a bag of bread, for example, with recycled content in the package, even if it cost them 25 cents more than a product with non-recycled content. So, the switch in behavior, the switch in mindset is starting to occur. So these are all of course great demand signals. But the problem today is that there is insufficient capacity to meet this growing demand. And our hope is really that as more capacity comes online and as regulations evolve, this segment of industry will definitely grow faster than the virgin materials. I'll give you an example of regulations that can support such growth. So, for example, EPR or extended producer responsibility. Now this is really important for building volumes of high-quality feedstocks that are required for recycling. The basic intent of EPR is to kind of make producers of finished goods accountable for ensuring recycling. And by 2026, most major provinces in Canada are expected to have a functioning EPR system. So, what's needed to make this a success? First and foremost, uniformity in rules on curbside pickup, like what goes into your blue bins. Today, we don't have a homogenized structure on what goes into blue bin, different municipalities do different things. So consistency in rules will be the first thing, that needs to happen, which will drive the economies of scale and then grow the feedstock availability, which in turn should attract investments to support that circularity. Another general point I'll add is that any regulatory requirement that Canada puts forward, whether it's to spur demand or to incent supply, will need to keep the regulatory environment south of the border in mind as well. If we get out of step, similar to many other examples that we have seen in the past, investment will tend to flow to the geography where the environment is more favourable.
 

00:14:55 - 00:15:37

Lance Mortlock

What about, Rocky, competition? I'm imagining that there are many major chemical companies that manufacture plastic materials that are interested in entering in this space, driving the science, driving the innovation. Are you feeling, is NOVA Chemicals feeling the competitive pressure rising, with increased rules and regulations and, and frankly, as you point out, customer requirements around a more sustainable future? How does a company like Nova differentiate itself and stay ahead of competition?
 

00:15:37 - 00:16:16

Rocky Vermani

Well, you know, it's a very hotly contested area at this point in time, right? I mean, in fact, you know, it's the new and emerging part of the industry. You're seeing, of course, all the major competitors at this point in time are kind of devising or deploying strategies to carve out positions for themselves. Interestingly, though, the majority of our competitors, because of their global footprint, started their journey out in Europe, and that's kind of pressures began growing there first and have been over the years developing their expertise in both mechanical and advanced recycling.
 

00:16:16 - 00:16:23

Lance Mortlock

And as Europe, just to interject there, Rocky. Is Europe ahead of us? Are they way ahead of us in terms of circularity?
 

00:16:23 - 00:19:11

Rocky Vermani

Certainly are. I think, the European regulatory environment as well as the, you know, the pressures that have come through in Europe, have forced them to be ahead. That's what I would say. So, Europe is certainly moving forward. So, both in the areas of mechanical recycling and advanced recycling. And there's also a connection to the asset footprint that they have in Europe, right? The asset base in Europe for most producers is kind of a little bit more conducive to doing certain things than the asset base in North America. So, there are some subtle differences which help with either side. But now what's happened is that, you know, look, similar pressures are rising in North America. And we at NOVA have put a leading stake in the ground, and both the recycled polyethylene and the mechanical recycling space. So, at the end of the day, what I would say is that both mechanical and advanced recycling are going to be required for the industry to deliver on the promise of circularity. So the question is, as the competitive activity intensifies, how do you differentiate? The simple answer really is innovation. We at NOVA are highly focused on tackling the product performance challenges, that come with recycling or recyclability and are really solving these problems through chemistry and our proprietary technologies. So in the area of mechanical recycling, it's really all about ensuring that recycled resins can have performance attributes, whether in conjunction with virgin materials or on their own, that can deliver on the requirements for a given application. And on advanced recycling, the focus needs to be on taking the recycled plastics and converting it back to polymer through going back to the monomer in some way. Now, there are number of technologies that are being developed on this front, and some of these ultimately will be the right fit, based on each company's, their own asset footprints. One thing to anchor on, however, is that we as industry became experts at unstitching the chains to make polymers. And hence it’s kind of logical that we lead the solution development for unstitching or reorienting the chains. So I see this as a very interesting technical opportunity, and one I'm confident that we as an industry will succeed in.
 

00:19:11 - 00:19:46

Lance Mortlock

So, the flip side of competition is that you need a certain amount of collaboration to push the envelope in terms of problem-solving and innovation. When, we when we were preparing for this podcast, Rocky, we noticed that your organization recently launched the Centre of Excellence for Plastic Circularity. And I'm imagining that through some kind of centre of excellence, a level of collaboration is needed. Tell us a bit more about the purpose and the objectives of that initiative.
 

00:19:46 - 00:22:02

Rocky Vermani

I'm really, really excited about this, the COE initiatives. The idea of bringing multiple parties together at one table to kind of think collaboratively and drive solutions for circularity is really key to speeding up our transition to circularity. So, think of the COE as a hub where industry, academia and government all collaborate to tackle key challenges. And then, you know, they bring their expertise to bear to develop and commercialize solutions. So, our vision on this is like a big tent with an open flap that houses multiple parties for solution development. But we also feel that Canada should be the one leading in this front, as we really have the talent here to progress global solutions. So, you think of our COE as, housed in Canada but built for the world type of approach. When we launched this COE, we went out and sought the interest from, academic partners, with a specific focus on the mechanical recycling, advanced recycling and microplastics. And we've had an overwhelming interest from a number of parties. And Canada said that it's apparent that there is a strong desire to really take on this challenge and operate opportunities that surround circularity and become a leader in this space. So, to me, that's inspiring. How all people are approaching it and even a number of industrial partners, whether they are in the producer space or the customer space, have also indicated a strong interest, which is great, because as I said, our desire is to scale up fast and to build a bigger collaboration and kind of an innovation ecosystem. So you know, with our deep innovation roots right here in Canada, we think we are not only, well placed to lead and catalyze this work, but we also almost have a responsibility to help bring this Canadian ingenuity to a global challenge. So I'm really proud of NOVA stepping up with this initiative. And I'm excited to see where it, where it takes us.
 

00:22:02 - 00:22:53

Lance Mortlock

That's awesome. And I think it really pushes the envelope in terms of innovation and collective thinking that moves the entire industry and the entire country forward. And the concept of circular economy. And you've touched on this before, it's been widely discussed over the last decade and it generally, as you point out, references leaning away from a “use and toss” model to the “use and repurpose” model of continuously recycling across industries and value chains. But it strikes me that there's a fundamental behavior that needs to change. The science obviously needs to improve, that you've touched on. Do you think we can truly achieve circular economy in our lifetime, Rocky or we are just a long way away from it?
 

00:22:53 - 00:27:05

Rocky Vermani

My belief’s that absolutely, it's possible that we can achieve it. So think about it. The concept of circular economy is already in practice in a number of industry segments, you know, so it's not new. So, both the steel and the aluminum industries have been on this path for a long time. And the plastics sector is now getting more active in this arena. So from a plastic industry perspective, moving to circular is absolutely achievable, but it requires everyone, requires the industry, consumers and government to start viewing used plastics as a valuable reusable resource instead of it being a waste product. So, this is going to require a multifaceted approach, with focus on I think several elements. Let me, let me explain. So first, I believe we need to effectively look at the value chain system from a cradle-to-cradle versus a cradle-to-grave perspective. You know, what this means is that when we deploy a polymer into an application, how can we do so in a manner that will make the product easy to recycle? Can we use a single material instead of a mixture of material to achieve the same performance characteristics? Because we know that single materials are much more easier to recycle, whether you're talking about, PET or even steel or aluminum, right? Single materials have a tendency to be more easily recyclable because you don't have to deal with cross-contamination of other materials. The second element is around building the infrastructure that helps us collect the post-consumption materials. Both on the consumer as well, on the industrial side, and bring them back to the producers for reprocessing. So, in order to achieve that, a collaborative approach with governments almost at all levels of government is going to be needed for the unified rules and standards around what can we collected and even how products are labeled, so that the consumer feels that they are educated enough to make the right choices and put things in the right places. As I mentioned, right, I mean, certain provinces in Canada are already leading the way. BC, for example, is already practicing the extended producer responsibility and has got to put in place what they call the producer responsibility organization, or “pros” as they are called, who are accountable for the collection, sorting and delivering of materials released back to the producers for reuse. Québec is another example, where this EPR is taking hold and what expectation is that most of Canada will be on this journey by 2026, but the collection mechanism is critical to creating that reliable and sustainable feedstock that we need for the recycled material. Another thing that's going to drive adoption is the recycled content mandates. So, governments are looking to mandate the amount of recycled content that needs to be incorporated in a given product and which we are generally supportive of. But this can very quickly become one of those catch-22, the classic supply-demand supply equation that we try to solve. For us as producers to successfully meet the mandated content requirement, we will need to ensure that there is sufficient feedstock, so the appropriate infrastructure investments are going to be required to make this happen and regulations, that supports these requirements are also needed to ensure that Canada does not push this demand to actually the south of the border with unrealistic mandates. And then of course, the innovation side of the things which are already highlighted earlier as part of our dialogue. So, generally Lance, I'm bullish on our ability to adopt circularity and that too, in a fairly speedy manner.
 

00:27:05 - 00:27:25

Lance Mortlock

On this podcast, Rocky, we've talked a lot about the importance of the right level of policy and regulation to drive change. What policies and regulations can enable us to achieve zero plastic waste in the future? What needs to happen?
 

00:27:25 - 00:30:37

Rocky Vermani

First of all, right, I mean we agree that plastic waste does not belong to the environment, right? So, from a policy perspective, I also believe that the Canadian government is interested in and supporting our industry value chain, while promoting through the innovation, productivity, economic growth, all the things that we need. So, I see kind of three things again, right? That can support this. Firstly, as I said, economies of scale are essential to bend from a linear to the circular economy side. So, getting ample quality feedstock is critical to building these recycling facilities. This is a significant challenge for Canada because our population is very spread out and, you know, over huge geographic area. So, when you're trying to collect consumer industrial waste, you need to be close to the population centers. So, how do we set in place the right infrastructure, the right policies that will allow us to get these materials back into the value chain? EPR programs, are the other one, right? They will increase the access to infrastructure and make this feedstock available. And the other third piece is that, look, innovation comes from multiple sources and people have lots of creativity that goes into doing this thing. So, as we evolve, we want to make sure that we don't get mandated to a specific technology or a specific pathway. So, we need to kind of stay technology agnostic to drive innovation, because when you look at, for example, in the world of advanced recycling, whether it happens through a catalytic route or a microwave route or a pyrolysis route, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, the policy has to be more focused on that we need to create recycled polyethylene materials through advanced recycling and the entrepreneurs and the producers can go down their path and figure out what works the best for them from a technology and economics perspective. From a behavioural perspective, if you're going to start to think about it, right, it is the whole idea of shifting the mind again from plastic being a waste to plastic being a resource. And I'll give you an example of this, right. I was in Ottawa, a couple of months ago. So, as you know, our currency here in Canada is made of plastic, versus paper in most of the world. So, this individual, he took out a $20 bill from his pocket and asked if any of us had seen a $20 bill floating, abandoned in a river or on a drain somewhere around. And the obvious answer was no. So, because simply put, if we as a society determine something has value, we are more likely to safeguard it and reuse it, right? So, the insight really is that…
 

00:30:37 - 00:30:53

Lance Mortlock

If you think about like plastic bottles and cans and recycling, they have value. So, typically they get, I think you, I think you told me once sort of 70%, 80% of that kind of plastic gets recycled. Is that right?
 

00:30:53 - 00:31:27

Rocky Vermani

That is absolutely the case now. Right? I mean, I think people realize that, and they put the bottles into the recycling places and that kind of gets collected and goes. I think the question what we all struggle with is what happens to it after that, right? So, once it's been collected, is it certainly, is it getting reused? Is it getting reprocessed and come back into the value chain? I mean, today, Lance, three billion people in the world do not have access to waste infrastructure.
 

00:31:27 - 00:31:28

Lance Mortlock

Wow.
 

00:31:28 - 00:32:08

Rocky Vermani

Think about it, right? We are 8.5 billion people approximately on this planet. Three billion of them don't have appropriate waste management infrastructure. This is what creates that problem that we continue to all see. Right? I mean, the pictures that you see of the plastic floating into the oceans and things like that. So, if we can attack the issue of reducing that plastic waste through building infrastructure and then convert the mindsets about that, no, it's actually a resource for recycling. The whole value chain gets turned upside down. And I think that's what we need.
 

00:32:08 - 00:32:25

Lance Mortlock

What about Canada and the US? You talked about alignment between the two earlier. Is there big differences in an approach from a policy perspective between the countries?
 

00:32:25 - 00:35:43

Rocky Vermani

Well, that's a loaded question. Yeah. No, we indeed do have important differences. You know, having worked for a Canadian company that has a direct line of sight into policies and economic conditions of our neighbours. I've been kind of fortunate to have that front row seat to the many differences between our countries on whether it's on decarbonization, innovation or other competitive issues that we generally face. You know, we all know that the markets are interconnected, and policies can either make or break competitiveness, particularly for us in Canada, because we are the smaller economy of the two. What stands out to me is really the uncertainty that gets generated in Canada by a constantly shifting policy environment. That kind of fails to recognize that, for major industrial projects to kind of get to the final investment decisions. We need predictability and as much certainty as possible. And I'm going to give you an example of how things change. So, we recently completed a large expansion in Sarnia, which was over 10 years in the making. And things have changed dramatically over that 10 years as we've kind of transversed this journey to when the project started. There was no carbon tax. Kathleen Wynne government of that time in Ontario had a cap-and-trade, no system in place. There were no federal ITC's, investment tax credits, nor was there any opportunity for CCUS’s. Carbon capture utilization. All that is different now. So, the playing field and even kind of the goalposts have shifted. All these are dynamics that are impactful to the economics and outcomes of the industry. And so, we're building our first facility, our recycling facility, mechanical recycling, in Connersville, and one of the first questions that we get from our provincial and federal government partners is, “Why Connersville? Why Indiana? What do we need to do to get you to establish your business here?” Now, the answer lies in, in the previous discussions we've had is, feedstock availability, access to infrastructure and investment, and innovation and technology. Unfortunately, what we often see in Canada, and I don't mean to be generic here, is that approach can at times be what's the minimum we need to do to support your business development or innovation projects? This is philosophically quite different than the attitude in the US where the question would be, “What do you need to bring us here, bring this here?” So this can have a significant impact these kind of things on companies’ decision-making around investing here versus south of the border. We all through our careers and different things that we've been exposed to know that carrots work better than sticks.
 

00:35:43 - 00:35:44

Lance Mortlock

Right.
 

00:35:44 - 00:36:45

Rocky Vermani

And policymakers need to be mindful of really crafting balanced policies to help encourage investment. This has become very apparent, particularly on the decarbonization side of things. And the US has taken an incentive-based or carrot-based approach to encouraging innovation and investment into all these decarbonization projects through their Inflation Reduction Act. And while Canada has gone down, what you call the stick path: implement the carbon tax to achieve the same outcome. And so, effectively, while in the US, there is a certainty on policy now that if you do this, that this is the incentive that you will capture. In Canada, it's not quite true. You're continuing to pay the carbon tax while you're starting to think about capital investment that will need to be made in order to achieve a certain outcome. So, your pocket’s getting hit from both sides, which makes it much more difficult.
 

00:36:45 - 00:36:59

Lance Mortlock

I've been saying for a while, Rocky, I'm not sure it's working. I'm not sure carbon tax is working. I mean, if we look at absolute emissions in this country, they're actually going up, not down.
 

00:36:59 - 00:38:23

Rocky Vermani

Absolutely. So, you can look at it right. Absolute emissions are also an indication that the economy is growing, right? So, energy and economy have to grow together. But I think if you started to take the lens of emission intensity, for example, you will see the trend as moving downwards, right? I mean, we've seen that in other operations. So, the carbon tax is at a right level. And with the proper incentives built in, and how it's executed, can be an incentive. I mean, we've talked about, for example, that if the government said that it is 1 to 1, that every dollar paid into the carbon tax went into, call it, you know, an account, which was my own account. So effectively I'm putting into a savings bank and then as when I'm ready, I’m going to draw that money out to help build what I need to build. So, I'm tapping into the resources that I've been saving, plus the capital, what I need to do to spend, to get to the solution. So, I think we need to get creative around it, that's the point, Lance. Right? We need to be thinking about broadly on what will help us achieve the final outcome and without really putting a constraint or putting an extra burden on a taxpayer pocket.
 

00:38:23 - 00:38:37

Lance Mortlock

As we wrap up here, Rocky, like one last question is, you’re at the centre of this innovation that's happening. What motivates you as a leader in this space?
 

00:38:37 - 00:40:02

Rocky Vermani

Honestly, the excitement to create something new. So, the curiosity. Every day, I look around and people are working on some kind of unique things, which they have now learned from different things that they've done in the past and all of these come to helping us solve a lot of the problems that we are facing in the society today. I mean, these are problems which have kind of come to us as a result of our economic growth, as a result of our prosperity. And we have solved a lot of problems that existed in the past through science and technology. And I see the same continuing. In fact, I see this trend almost now expediting, with the advent of more of this artificial intelligence type of technologies, which are really going to get us focused on how do you increase the speed of discovery. So, if I can increase the speed of discovery, I can then go forward down the path of bringing these solutions to the market much faster. So, that's what kind of drives me. So, when I get up in the morning, it is, my mind is thinking about right what new ideas can be pulled together or interconnected or put into the same cauldron, if you want to call it, which will give us something new and help us solve all these problems.
 

00:40:02 - 00:40:40

Lance Mortlock

That's awesome. Well, listen, it strikes me that you are certainly at the centre of innovation, Rocky and really leading the charge from a chemicals industry perspective and that, as I listen to you, is pretty inspiring. You're a problem-solver and you're working on something that is very, very important to society and the future of sustainability. So, thank you for your time and insights. It's been a real pleasure talking to you about your journey and what NOVA Chemicals is up to.
 

00:40:40 - 00:41:06

Rocky Vermani

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me, Lance, to participate on your podcast today and then sharing your valuable time with me, on this important topic. And I'm sure, I think as our listeners listen to our podcast, they may have some fantastic ideas they want to share with us as well on how they feel that we can expedite this journey towards circularity. And I absolutely look forward to the thoughts of other folks. So, thank you again.
 

00:41:06 - 00:42:46

Lance Mortlock

That's a great segue, Rocky, to sort of my wrap-up comments here for our listeners, if you have your own questions or queries, you can reach out to EY via the attached contact details. Finishing another great conversation and episode I'd like to share a few final thoughts. Firstly, Canada continues to be at the forefront of innovation. As Rocky described, NOVA Chemicals is a brilliant Canadian enterprise that's challenging the norms of the plastics industry, which is another great example of our local innovation capabilities, which I think and I've been saying for a while, we underestimate it in this country. Secondly, sustainable plastics are the future. Although we are still using plenty of conventional plastics, it is no surprise that the industry, the government and the people are all interested in transitioning towards a more sustainable product. And finally, circular economy should be a more popular subject in Canada. I think this could be an interesting concept for our country. We frequent me talk about the energy transition as a strategic imperative on this show, but a circular economy is also another fantastic opportunity that I think we should be further considering and evaluating in the future. So once again, thank you for joining our podcast. We'll see you at our next episode.