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How global businesses should prepare for ViDA and rise of e-invoicing
In this episode of the Tax and Law in Focus podcast, the speakers explore the challenges, potential impact and opportunities created by the VAT in the Digital Age proposal.
Related topics
Podcast host Susannah Streeter welcomes Pierre M Arman, Tax, Partner, EY Consulting LLC, Deirdre Hogan, Tax, Partner, at Ernst & Young - Business Advisors and Ben Woodfield, UK&I Indirect Tax Partner, Ernst & Young LLP, to dive deep into the rise of e-invoicing and what it will mean for global business operations.
What will the VAT in the Digital Age proposal (ViDA) mean for companies in Europe and worldwide? These proposals published by the European Commission in late 2022 aim to modernize the VAT system.
The proposals include e-invoicing and digital reporting, the single VAT return for trading across the EU, taking into account the growing platform economy – which businesses use to facilitate exchanges.
One of the significant benefits of ViDA is its shift to digital, which should facilitate a more efficient, transparent, and accurate approach to VAT management.
With an increasing number of member states implementing different digital reporting models, there is a need for harmonization at the EU level – and it is anticipated that ViDA will prevent errors, detect fraud, and improve risk management.
In this episode, we address the key questions facing businesses, such as what steps should companies be taking now to get prepared? What strategic opportunities could ViDA open up, and what role will the tax function have, given it will have business-wide implications?
Key takeaways:
- Timely preparation for the new changes proposed by ViDA is crucial. Delays can lead to complications, emphasizing the importance of planning well in advance, especially in the assessment phase.
- The shift to digital reporting and e-invoicing offers an opportunity for companies to optimize their operations, particularly in tax compliance and risk management. Viewing these changes as an opportunity rather than a burden can yield long-term benefits.
- Addressing the integrity and accuracy of data is vital, especially when it comes to real-time reporting. Understanding the detailed process and engaging with stakeholders are key steps for ViDA preparation.
For your convenience, full text transcript of this podcast is also available.
Hello and welcome to the EY Tax and Law in Focus podcast – I’m Susannah Streeter and in this edition, we are going to be getting to know ViDA a lot better. I’m talking about the VAT in the Digital Age proposal – and what it’s going to mean for companies — not just in Europe but around the world. These proposals published by the European Commission in late 2022 aim to modernize the VAT system. The proposals include e-invoicing and digital reporting, the single VAT return for trading across the EU, taking into account the growing platform economy – which businesses use to facilitate exchanges. One of the significant benefits of ViDA is its shift to digital, which should enable a more efficient, transparent, and accurate approach to VAT management.With an increasing number of member states implementing different models of digital reporting, there is clearly a need for harmonization at the EU level – and it is hoped ViDA will prevent errors, detect fraud and enhance risk management. So, what steps should companies be taking now to get prepared? What strategic opportunities could ViDA open up, and what role will the tax function be as ViDA is implemented, given it will have business-wide implications? We’re also going to be looking at the global implications –ViDA might be an EU proposal, but multinationals will need to consider the impact and challenges ahead given their worldwide reach. I am very pleased to say we have three leading professionals in the field to discuss these questions – and more – but before I introduce them, please remember: Conversations during this podcast should NOT be relied on as accounting, legal, investment, or other professional advice. Listeners must, of course, consult their own advisors. I’m very pleased to welcome: Pierre Arman – Tax Partner at EY – Pierre, you’re across everything to do with tax technology and have heaps of experience in indirect tax automation – and you are also a travel enthusiast, I believe – where in the world are you talking to us today from?
Pierre Arman
I am. I am talking to you from Dubai today.
Streeter
Well, great to have you here on the podcast with us. Let’s also welcome Deirdre Hogan, EY Ireland Tax Partner, who I know is passionate about building relationships and gets super excited about innovation. So perfect to have on this podcast. Deirdre, you love to run, I understand? Where have you been heading recently?
Deirdre Hogan
Thanks, Susanna. Yes, I do. I’m in Amsterdam at the moment, and I had a lovely run around the canals here this morning.
Streeter
Well, it’s great to have you here. Let’s welcome Ben Woodfield, Indirect Tax Partner for the UK and Ireland, who has a razor-sharp focus on finding strategic solutions for tax departments. Ben, I know you’re usually found in London. Are you there now?
Ben Woodfield
Well, hello, Susannah. Completely by coincidence, I’m also in Amsterdam this week as well, but I wasn’t running around the canals this morning. I was gently observing the nice weather and the boats going past.
Streeter
Well, I do hope you two get to meet up. But first of all, let’s talk and focus right into the subject at hand. Deirdre, can you set the scene? What exactly will ViDA mean for companies?
Hogan
There are three pillars to ViDA, but if we’re talking about, the digitalization and e-invoicing and real-time reporting, it’s going to mean a significant change for companies. It’s effectively going to force companies to digitalize. That will mean different things for different companies depending on where they are on that journey already. But certainly, for a lot of companies who may not be participating in that space at the moment, it’s going to be a huge change from a systems perspective, from a process perspective, from a tax management perspective in terms of data. So I think a really, really significant change for companies. There’ll be positives and benefits to those changes, be it around standardization and that digitalization mandate, which will force every company into our current century. But the challenges will be around the cost of implementing it, the burden of implementing it, and the challenges some companies will face getting up to speed with it. So lots of changes, big impact on companies, more or less depending on where they are.
Streeter
So Pierre, as Deirdre is outlining there, this is a huge change, isn’t it? In many ways, it’s setting a level playing field. To what extent is this really a game-changer?
Arman
It is. Well, it’s a game-changer because you have 27 countries trying to coordinate when they’re going to go live on a particular piece of legislation, which we see here is ViDA. This is not uncommon in the EU, where, obviously, they are trying to harmonize as much as possible all the legislation they are passing as a group. But in this particular case, what’s quite interesting is you’re going to have different timelines for different countries from now all the way to the first of June 2028, where officially by that date, every single EU member country needs to have a new invoicing regime and a new reporting regime into place as well. It’s a really big piece of change, exactly as Deirdre mentioned, and it’s something that companies need to be aware of and start to prepare as soon as possible. Because of that staggered implementation timeline, you may find yourself having to go live in Poland or Romania, in France, versus trying to prepare for Germany and Belgium, right? It would be a very complex project, especially for large multi-country companies.
Streeter
Deirdre, do you think timings might have to change in some jurisdictions, given this complexity?
Hogan
2028 seems far away right now, but it’s essentially only four and a bit years. And given there are three pillars to the proposal, and all of them have to be passed by everybody, I realistically would think that timing will slip. Furthermore, the agreement that some jurisdictions, including the Irish Revenue, which we’ve heard is that they’re looking for agreement on standardization, on e-invoicing, domestically as well as cross-border. I think that will be a harder ask to get agreement to, perhaps. So, I think a significant change in the agreement is needed across all jurisdictions; I would think that timing will slip, and it wouldn’t be unheard of for that to happen across the EU. I would expect it to slip, but hopefully not by too much.
Streeter
Well, that’s good to hear. Given so many companies are gearing up right now, it’s good to have some horizon ahead to aim for. Ben, why did ultimately these changes come about in the first place?
Woodfield
Ultimately, the whole mechanism around collecting VAT as a process is quite a complex one. It relates to chain transactions between businesses and the individuals, and organizations almost operate as the administration around collecting this information and collecting this cash and passing it on to the tax authorities. Now, that process in itself can be pretty efficient, and there is leakage within that process. There’s been a real focus around, well, actually, how do tax authorities look to close the VAT gap, but also look to prevent fraud in different situations. And now with the advancement around technology and data and where they’ve seen it taking place in other jurisdictions, I think they’ve seen the opportunity to say, actually, the approach around e-invoicing, getting things right the first time will mean that there’s less fraudulent transactions within the system, but also that VAT leakage that they’re trying to cut away is getting away from it. So that’s why it’s come about in theory. To go to your point about the scale of the change ahead, I think it’s a fundamental shift in the way that they do things. And it’s a huge amount of change not only for the tax authority itself, but also the organizations that are trying to deal with that. And ultimately, we know that the tax authorities need to take their time to get this right and to try and reduce the burden on the organizations that are trying to administer this. And where we’ve seen these requirements come into force before, there have been slight delays around it, but I think they’ve learned a lot of lessons from it, but it takes a lot of effort for them to get that right. But also organizations themselves, a lot of these organizations are vast organizations with complex systems and environments and data, and it takes a lot of change to get this through. Even simple changes within organizations when it comes to data and information take a long time to process that. So, we are seeing a fundamental shift, particularly for the big multinational organizations that are operating in lots of different jurisdictions.
Streeter
So there’s a big shift underway. Deirdre, do you think e-businesses and global companies are sufficiently aware and prepared for these changes?
Hogan
I would say that it’s a mixed bag. I think as Ben alluded to there, the multinationals are aware of it. They’re already dealing with it in lots of jurisdictions. So for them, this isn’t going to be that much of a surprise. But yeah, certainly for smaller companies, mid-size companies, those who don’t have as large an international footprint, I think they’re not as aware of it as they should be because of the significance of the change that's coming for them. And even more so, if you think of smaller domestic companies in any of the EU jurisdictions, they may not even be in any way digitalized as of yet. This change is going to be massive. It’s a mixed bag. We as advisors need to make sure that we’re out there getting the word out about what companies need to do to prepare for this because regardless of timing, it is coming and it’ll come around relatively quickly.
Streeter
Pierre, let me bring you in. What do you think the first steps of companies should be then in getting up to speed with the challenges and the opportunities ahead?
Arman
Trying to understand how you are going to be impacted by this change in the different countries where you’re operating would be the first step. There is also, again, a timing issue in terms of we see each country will do a staggered implementation with the largest taxpayers going first and then go down size. At which point in time, depending on your size and where you operate and how much of an operation you have in that country, are you going to be caught in that net is very important. That is the first thing. The second one is ensuring that internally you have the right awareness of the different parts of the organization on the scale of that change, because even though obviously all of us today are part of tax, it is not just a tax change. it's a business change, right? It will impact every single part of the organization, and so everybody needs to be aligned on that. Then, usually at the same time, especially if you’re a large company, your IT resources might be extremely scarce, or they might be booked for the next three years already. How do you then align the fact that you may need them and you may need them to do a lot of change sooner than expected? Because without you being ready to comply with any invoicing regime in a particular country, we cannot do business anymore, right? It’s as simple as that. You become non-compliant from day one. The implication of BIC, and so to get ready, I think the assessment phase is very, very important to really understand how you’re going to be impacted. What do you have to do, and where do you need to be in the next three, five or 10 years to be able to comply with that and hopefully to also future-proof your business, because as Ben said, that trend is not going to go away, right? The introduction of e-invoicing, whether it is in Europe or other parts of the world, is not going to go away because it has shown very clearly that it leads to a reduction of the tax cut for each country, right? This is not going to go away. People need to be ready.
Streeter
People really should get in gear right now. And Deirdre, I’m interested in what Pierre was saying about how this has implications for operations across the business. Should it be seen as a tax process?
Hogan
Yeah, Susannah, I think it’s a tax process and it’s part of the tax function’s remit to take ownership of it. But I would agree with what Pierre said is that it’s not just tax and they will be the ones who have to shout the loudest to get things started to get moving on the requirements. But ultimately, the invoicing, real-time reporting, going down to data requirements and the tax function, as much as the tax process, we need to make sure that the data that is needed to meet the requirements are captured throughout the detailed processes. So, it’s not just a downstream piece of tax reporting anymore. This is right across the business. Certainly, while it is not just a tax process, tax do need to own it. They need to start talking to the other stakeholders in the business to ensure that the data elements and the changes that are required throughout that end-to-end process are put in place, or at least that there’s a plan for them over the next couple of years.
Streeter
And going back to you, Pierre, do you think ViDA could, in fact, bring about real benefits to organizations further down the line? We’re talking about all these changes, but what bright spots can you see?
Arman
I think there are a lot of them, like any long-lasting benefit, there is a painful investment first that you need to go through before you will get there. But if you think about what Deirdre just said around the fact that this is not just a downstream change, but it needs to be an upstream change, because you need to get your transaction right from the beginning, from a tax standpoint, simply because you need to expose those transactions and that data directly to the tax authorities straight away. Sometimes they even need to approve that transaction before you can actually complete it, right? We are moving from a world where you get all your transactions at the end of the month or the period. You message the data, and then you find the return to a world where, from the beginning, the tax authority has complete visibility on your transaction as a taxpayer. While that may sound scary, and it is a big change to how it works today, what that then means essentially is you start to have visibility as a taxpayer and as a business on a lot of the data points that would typically need to wait after your books are closed to start to get a hold of. So it can bring, I think, a lot of benefit in that sense on the visibility side. There is also an efficiency point because e-invoicing in most countries at the beginning is really to smooth the business landscape, to make the business landscape easier for all companies in that country to transact with one another and remove friction as much as possible. So, having to jump onto the e-invoicing wave also means that you have to improve your cash collection. You have to have better controls and checks, which means you get better data faster, which has a lot of benefits for a whole range of, I would say, part of your organization. Tax because we are very data-heavy. We are a very data-heavy part of the organization; we need a lot of data constantly for every other business, but there is also a huge range of benefits for others as well. I think the last thing as well is the investment today that a business might need to make to get ready for ViDA can also bring a lot of benefits in the future because whatever you are doing today can future-proof yourself, which means that then when there is another country that will bring the invoicing, you are basically ready for it, you don’t need to rip everything off and start from scratch again. You already have a place, another platform to be able to deal with that, not just from a technologist and a process standpoint. Your people are used to it. They know how to react to that change, how to manage that change, and how long it’s going to take as well. There is a lot that companies should think about, as well as some of the benefits they’re going to get by being ready for ViDA.
Streeter
Absolutely. So, Deirdre, given the transformation outlined there by Pierre, to what extent will ViDA enable larger organizations to step back and consider overall strategy rather than seeing ViDA as a quick-fix solution to immediate issues?
Hogan
I think it gives them a really good opportunity. It’s timely at the moment because a lot of companies, not all, but a lot of companies in the market are going through SAP upgrades, moving to SAP S/4HANA. And so from a tax perspective, they can step back and say to their business, Hey, if you're going through this implementation upgrade anyway, then let's talk about tax and let's talk about the tax needs now and going into the future. Let's make sure tax is a seat at the table as we look at the strategy for our ERP system. So that's very timely. And if you're lucky in that position, that's what tax functions should be doing. Suppose you're not in that position where you're going through already an ERP upgrade. In that case, you should certainly look at it from a strategic perspective and talk to your other stakeholders in the company around what is the IT journey, what is the finance transformation journey in your company over the next years, and how does this fit into that. It's very important that communication of these changes is brought forward to the table to the C-suite, CFOs, the finance lead, etc, so that they're aware of it. It is a significant change. It's going to cost a lot of money for companies to implement it. Doing it on a one-off basis doesn't make sense where it could fit into wider strategic initiatives of the business. So I think it's very important that they try and look at it from a strategic perspective and where they can't, where there isn't anything else happening, then they need to make sure that there is an awareness again of the end-to-end changes in the process that is needed. And again, the data elements throughout the cycle and in different business processes will need to be updated as well. So, strategic changes should be done on that basis, but ultimately, making everyone aware of the business of these changes coming down the line is crucial.
Streeter
So Ben, Deirdre is talking about the wider strategic opportunities. Do you think this could lead to changes in the ERP system? Will ViDA provide the impetus for investing in new technologies coming upstream?
Woodfield
First and foremost, I agree with everything Deirdre and Pierre have been saying that when managing this change, you have to look at all the different interactions around the stakeholders, the people, the processes, and manage this strategically. But if we zoom into technology and what does this mean for technology, the ERP system or the technology ecosystems that our EY clients have, they're going to have to make change and they're going to have to invest in that. Whether that is buying new technology they require to meet these needs or leveraging technology that they've got already or in a much more sophisticated way to be able to do that within ERP. So you're seeing a huge amount of investment within the market from both the ERP providers, but also tax technology providers to get these solutions. So it's definitely clear that they're going to have to spend the money. The key is, how do you make sure that you invest it in a strategic way? What we've seen to date around requirements when it comes to tax or e-invoicing is a bit of frantic - we need to respond to each of the tactical needs. And that led to a lot of investment by organizations not just in technology, but investment of their time and energy to implement all these solutions, which has led to a fractured ecosystem. And if we think about what's at the heart of this, is having one source of the truth for data from both a tax perspective for the tax authorities and for an organization to manage their risk. We really need to see a strategy around that investment. And we're seeing the evolution of the role of the tax technologist or the tax process owner. And they've got a key role here in ensuring that when organizations are looking to invest that technology, getting that business case over the line around investing it in the right way, but building a platform and an ecosystem that can manage these changes not only from a come and get the invoice out the door, but also, is it reconciling with what we're telling the tax authorities? Does it reconcile with what we're saying for our compliance processes? The other key thing is these requirements are going to come thick and fast. We've seen countries go already, but with the announcement of ViDA, it means this will come down the line quickly over the next five years. Those organizations that have taken the time to set the strategy around this pick the right technology ecosystem, are going to be able to manage this in a much more efficient and strategic way than tactically responding to the needs. They might need to spend some money on doing that. But longer term, they'll prevent the investment that they need to do every single time one of these requirements comes along.
Streeter
I can see you nodding, Pierre, as Ben's talking. What is your take on this? Clearly, internal alignment will be needed for this implementation. So, how should this be best tackled?
Arman
Well, I always nod when Ben speaks, that's why. But yeah, he makes a very good point, right? And if you think about the alignment internally that you need to have to be able for one of these implementations to be a success, it is actually quite tricky. One of the challenges I've seen is sometimes people don't know where the whole e-invoicing project should sit. Is it tax? Is it IT? Is it finance? Who has the budget? How much IT should be involved? We've seen sometimes it's an IT-led project, which, as much as I love our IT colleagues, is not the right answer because they would not understand the intricacy of tax needs. Then, when tax needs to lead it, this is a big project, so it could be close to a full-time job sometimes, depending on the scale of the project. How do you have enough resources to be able to deal with that? We've seen quite a lot of challenges in that space around the alignment of the different stakeholders and also the budget. I had the example quite recently where a client started obviously to get ready for the French implementation of e-invoicing. Now, France has pushed the implementation goal for now, at least, we are still determining exactly by how much. The client's answer was, Well, I cannot do this project now because I will lose my budget, right? I need to keep on going. You need to have a lot of these quite complex interactions internally to make such a project a success. Because again, once you want to start to get ready for a go-live date, or I should say testing date, it's not just tax that needs to test the system; it's the whole business. Because when the whole business will need to use this as a way forward, for instance, from a cash collection standpoint. So, is everybody aware of how this is going to work and what they need to do? So, to me, that's one of the main challenges; the alignment, because it touches every single part of your organization or close to it.
Streeter
So it touches every part of the organization, Ben, as Pierre has been pointing out. So what are clients telling you then about who should take responsibility for driving this process, given it will affect so many parts of the business?
Woodfield
Yeah, it's been really interesting actually talking to clients. It's almost better off looking at that longer-term view. Anyone that's worked with me over the last 15 years, I've always banged on about the importance around technology and data. And there's always been a period of convincing our tax stakeholders that it's their responsibility to drive it forward. We're very lucky that we spend a lot of time with clients, but we also spend a lot of time with clients in big forums. I'd say when you go back a couple of years when we were looking at digital tax requirements, there was a general interest from a tax perspective in what these requirements were. But there was definitely the majority of the feeling in the room was, this is something that IT and finance are going to sort out for us. So it's our role to let them know it's going on. But really, we don't want to lean in and take too much responsibility around the processes and the data, because ultimately they're owned by other people. We've seen a seismic shift from that over the last couple of years. Earlier this year, we ran our global forum for indirect tax, and the e-invoicing subjects were probably the most subscribed sessions that we were having. But interestingly, in those sessions, those same people a couple of years ago telling me that they don't want to be involved in this and actually it's the rest of the responsibility of the business. They're learning from their experience that they've got a massive role to play in this. And as a tax stakeholder, you're ultimately there to partner better with the business. The role that they've got in e-invoicing is to partner better with the business to not only look at the solution in a strategic light, but also start to think about managing risk and helping the client go through that journey. So, it's been a real seismic shift in the expectation of the role of tax. The other really interesting thing is you talk about my clients. I probably talk to more IT people and finance people than I've ever spoken to throughout my entire career, because once we've got it on the table around e-invoicing and being able to deal with it, that tri-party agreement of working through clients, how do we deal with it? There's an acceptance between all of those stakeholders that we need to work together to be able to get the right answer. There is a misconception that this is one person's responsibility to care for that. Ultimately, this is a business risk that needs to be managed. And therefore, if you're in tax and you're not engaging in that, or you're thinking that this is not your responsibility, you're falling behind your other organizations at taking that step forward and investing into that journey and thinking about how do we solve this business problem that we've got to be able to get it the right way that could be efficient for the business but also manages our risk and the responsibility that we've got to our tax authorities.
Streeter
So the realization is clearly dawning, not just on managing risks and implementation and cooperation, but also the costs involved, as has already been pointed out. Deirdre, how can e-invoicing potentially reduce expenditure over time? What are the prospects for ROI?
Hogan
From an ROI perspective, it'll depend on every company, and where they are and what they do and end up investing in this because, like any technology, you can have state-of-the-art or you can have just good enough. As Pierre alluded to earlier, e-invoicing will level the playing field. It'll make things easier for businesses. And real-time reporting in and of itself are probably anxiety-inducing for tax functions at the moment. Once they get their data to where it needs to be, they should see a reduction, I would expect, in audits, in penalties and interest for errors because the more automated their processes are and the better quality data that they have, which they will need to have if they're going to be reporting transactions in real-time. Either the quality should be better, therefore, they should have less errors. In that sense, from a tax administration perspective, there'll be a return on investment in time, but certainly the cost of implementing it and how it's managed. And that will again vary from a business-by-business perspective, but at least every company will be dealing with the same thing. So there's an equity, if you like, in how this is being implemented, albeit, as I mentioned earlier, if you're a small domestic company and domestic invoicing is being implemented, you might feel a bit more of an unfair burden in the sense that it's going to take you a lot longer to get up to speed. I think there are pros and cons for this. But the return on investment it's a tricky one because it does depend on what the spend is upfront on it. But certainly, there are benefits around cash accounting as well down the line, managing your transactions, managing your throughput, and doing so in a real-time basis. There are winners and losers in it and certainly potential for return on investment. But again, it depends on how it's implemented.
Streeter
So, Ben, we've talked about some of the difficulties or challenges that could be in implementation. What do you think are the biggest risks for companies throughout this process?
Woodfield
I think this whole process is really, really challenging. But when I take a step back and think about what's the biggest risk, especially maybe from a tax hat on, ultimately it's data. It's the most critical component of your tax position. It's the ultimate goal of a tax function to be able to manage risk, and that risk is in the data. Ultimately, you could build the perfect system and ecosystem by investing in technology, and you could do it in the most efficient way. But if you end up sending data through that system that is incorrect or is not giving the right answer, ultimately you're creating a lot of risk. I think we've had lots of experience with organizations investing in technology and processes before to make their traditional compliance processes more effective. Those organizations that have just seen it as a technology-only solution without addressing the data and the risk of the data going through those systems have not really seen the real effectiveness of that investment in technology, and they blame the technology, but ultimately it's the actual data going through that. So ultimately, for me, I think the biggest risk here for organizations from the tax perspective is data going through this process with no real control around it. Tax departments to date have been very good at protecting organizations from risk coming from the tax authorities and reputational risk by putting really good compliance processes in place further downstream. The more this gets automated, the more that goes away. So the more pressure is on getting things right the first time, and therefore the impact on those processes and the outcome of that is the data that goes through those processes. That, to me, is the biggest thing that people are going to have to manage.
Streeter
And staying on that data point, if I can put it that way, Pierre, what further opportunities, perhaps on a global scale, will ViDA open up given they can give the tax and finance function such extensive, live, granular data?
Arman
In terms of further opportunities, if you think about where the global trends are going, the global trends are showing you that, at least from an indirect tax standpoint, it's tax authorities wanting more and more data more often, earlier on into the process and slowly trying to get rid of the final filing. They don't need you to file with your return anymore because they have all the underlying data immediately. I think one of the opportunities as well is as you have tax authorities who are starting to become very, very advanced in their own tech capabilities, being ready, and what ViDA will help companies to get ready for is being able to match the technology capability that the tax authorities have. And so when we are in a world where you could have a slow death of the VAT return, and it won't happen by tomorrow, but it might happen 5, 10, 15 years from now. It's already started in countries like Poland, for instance. You start to be in a much better position because you have confidence in your data upstream and you can very, very easily challenge whatever the tax authorities is going to say to you on your data, on how much VAT you owe them. Whereas if you're not confident on that, you start to have less technology capabilities that someone who will audit you, which is never a good place to be. That's also a confidence point, right, as a business. And as a tax function, you can help your organization be ready for that. I think that the third one is, if we step outside VAT for a minute, because it has such a transactional aspect, there are a lot of opportunities when you know your data and you have visibility on it to start to use that same data set for all those sorts of purpose throughout your organization, and if I maybe give one single example of that. We know that about 40% of the data points that you need for your ESG reporting as a company can come from your indirect tax data because a lot of the data points are similar. As a tax function, you start to shine for your board by saying, Hey, I can give you 40% of your whole ESG reporting because I have my game in order, because I know exactly the data that I have, what I can give you, and I'm 100% confident about it. So if we go back to one of the core that we all talked about throughout this podcast, which is data. Now, getting that in order allows you, as a tax function, not just to get ready for what ViDA and I guess all the e-invoicing and reporting will bring on, but also to start to also help other part of the organization as well, because you have access and you're confident about that data in the first place.
Streeter
That's really interesting - the extent to which ViDA could be seen as empowering. Well, we are nearly at the end of the podcast now, but just to finish, I'd really like to get a key takeaway from each of you. I'd like to ask you what really should be at the forefront of mind as companies adjust to this new way of working. What key takeaway should listeners take from this podcast, Pierre?
Arman
Well, I'm going to be very boring, and I'm going to say start early. Do not delay it. You may think you have time because such and such country have delayed the implementation. You do not. Do not underestimate the impact and the amount of work just at the assessment phase that you need to do in order to get ready. That to me is the key because it's a bit like when you are in school, you are being told repeatedly, do not leave it to the last minute. Consistently, everyone does, and it feels the exact same way in the business world. You, just all of us, find ourselves being like a broken record. Just do not leave it to the last minute. Please do not leave it to the last minute, and still a lot of companies do. That would be if there is one takeaway for people who will listen to this: please do not leave it to the last minute.
Streeter
As a parent of teenagers, I really get that right now. Ben, what's your key takeaway?
Woodfield
I'd go with something along the lines of embrace the change. I think we talk a lot about how difficult this is going to be, how challenging it's going to be, a lot of risk around it. But there's a real opportunity here for organizations to try and embrace this change. It's an opportunity to look at what are you doing now that you could do better and use this as a platform to build, well, how are we going to manage this data and this risk going forward? If organizations get this right, not only does it mean that they are compliant with what's going on within the jurisdictions. But in theory, it should give them a better platform to look at that data to help them be a better business partner as well, particularly from a tax perspective. Data is key and it gives so much insight to tax functions and people that work in tax to be able to give better internal advice to the business, manage the business in a better way. And therefore, instead of looking at this as a burden, properly embrace it, lean into it. Don't be afraid of tackling it. Don't be afraid of talking to stakeholders about it.
Really embrace the change and be a change agent because it's setting up the way that we can work for the next 10, 15, 20 years. So there's a real opportunity here.
Streeter
Ben, thank you. And finally, Deirdre.
Hogan
Well, Pierre and Ben stole all the good talking points, so I'll come up with something. But no, I agree with what Pierre and Ben said, but it's around data, data, data, data. Ultimately, if you're going to be reporting in real-time, you need to ensure the quality of data is where it needs to be. Finally, that goes back to how your systems are set up and what's your source of data. So it's taking that holistic look at your end-to-end process and understanding those data elements and to what Ben said, engaging with your stakeholders, all those other relevant stakeholders in the other business processes that you will need to help you get ready for this change. So can't say it enough: data.
Streeter
Well, thank you all for a really fascinating discussion. Really good holistic podcast on this subject. Some great insights on why ViDA is set to be such a game-changer. Thank you so much for your time.
Hogan
Thanks, Susannah.
Arman
Thank you.
Woodfield
Thank you very much.
Streeter
I'm Susannah Streeter. I hope you'll join me again for the next edition of the EY, Tax and Law in Focus podcast. EY, building a better working world.
The views of third parties set out in this podcast are not necessarily the views of the global EY organization nor its member firms. Moreover, they should be seen in the context of the time in which they were made.
Pierre Arman
I am. I am talking to you from Dubai today.
Streeter
Well, great to have you here on the podcast with us. Let’s also welcome Deirdre Hogan, EY Ireland Tax Partner, who I know is passionate about building relationships and gets super excited about innovation. So perfect to have on this podcast. Deirdre, you love to run, I understand? Where have you been heading recently?
Deirdre Hogan
Thanks, Susanna. Yes, I do. I’m in Amsterdam at the moment, and I had a lovely run around the canals here this morning.
Streeter
Well, it’s great to have you here. Let’s welcome Ben Woodfield, Indirect Tax Partner for the UK and Ireland, who has a razor-sharp focus on finding strategic solutions for tax departments. Ben, I know you’re usually found in London. Are you there now?
Ben Woodfield
Well, hello, Susannah. Completely by coincidence, I’m also in Amsterdam this week as well, but I wasn’t running around the canals this morning. I was gently observing the nice weather and the boats going past.
Streeter
Well, I do hope you two get to meet up. But first of all, let’s talk and focus right into the subject at hand. Deirdre, can you set the scene? What exactly will ViDA mean for companies?
Hogan
There are three pillars to ViDA, but if we’re talking about, the digitalization and e-invoicing and real-time reporting, it’s going to mean a significant change for companies. It’s effectively going to force companies to digitalize. That will mean different things for different companies depending on where they are on that journey already. But certainly, for a lot of companies who may not be participating in that space at the moment, it’s going to be a huge change from a systems perspective, from a process perspective, from a tax management perspective in terms of data. So I think a really, really significant change for companies. There’ll be positives and benefits to those changes, be it around standardization and that digitalization mandate, which will force every company into our current century. But the challenges will be around the cost of implementing it, the burden of implementing it, and the challenges some companies will face getting up to speed with it. So lots of changes, big impact on companies, more or less depending on where they are.
Streeter
So Pierre, as Deirdre is outlining there, this is a huge change, isn’t it? In many ways, it’s setting a level playing field. To what extent is this really a game-changer?
Arman
It is. Well, it’s a game-changer because you have 27 countries trying to coordinate when they’re going to go live on a particular piece of legislation, which we see here is ViDA. This is not uncommon in the EU, where, obviously, they are trying to harmonize as much as possible all the legislation they are passing as a group. But in this particular case, what’s quite interesting is you’re going to have different timelines for different countries from now all the way to the first of June 2028, where officially by that date, every single EU member country needs to have a new invoicing regime and a new reporting regime into place as well. It’s a really big piece of change, exactly as Deirdre mentioned, and it’s something that companies need to be aware of and start to prepare as soon as possible. Because of that staggered implementation timeline, you may find yourself having to go live in Poland or Romania, in France, versus trying to prepare for Germany and Belgium, right? It would be a very complex project, especially for large multi-country companies.
Streeter
Deirdre, do you think timings might have to change in some jurisdictions, given this complexity?
Hogan
2028 seems far away right now, but it’s essentially only four and a bit years. And given there are three pillars to the proposal, and all of them have to be passed by everybody, I realistically would think that timing will slip. Furthermore, the agreement that some jurisdictions, including the Irish Revenue, which we’ve heard is that they’re looking for agreement on standardization, on e-invoicing, domestically as well as cross-border. I think that will be a harder ask to get agreement to, perhaps. So, I think a significant change in the agreement is needed across all jurisdictions; I would think that timing will slip, and it wouldn’t be unheard of for that to happen across the EU. I would expect it to slip, but hopefully not by too much.
Streeter
Well, that’s good to hear. Given so many companies are gearing up right now, it’s good to have some horizon ahead to aim for. Ben, why did ultimately these changes come about in the first place?
Woodfield
Ultimately, the whole mechanism around collecting VAT as a process is quite a complex one. It relates to chain transactions between businesses and the individuals, and organizations almost operate as the administration around collecting this information and collecting this cash and passing it on to the tax authorities. Now, that process in itself can be pretty efficient, and there is leakage within that process. There’s been a real focus around, well, actually, how do tax authorities look to close the VAT gap, but also look to prevent fraud in different situations. And now with the advancement around technology and data and where they’ve seen it taking place in other jurisdictions, I think they’ve seen the opportunity to say, actually, the approach around e-invoicing, getting things right the first time will mean that there’s less fraudulent transactions within the system, but also that VAT leakage that they’re trying to cut away is getting away from it. So that’s why it’s come about in theory. To go to your point about the scale of the change ahead, I think it’s a fundamental shift in the way that they do things. And it’s a huge amount of change not only for the tax authority itself, but also the organizations that are trying to deal with that. And ultimately, we know that the tax authorities need to take their time to get this right and to try and reduce the burden on the organizations that are trying to administer this. And where we’ve seen these requirements come into force before, there have been slight delays around it, but I think they’ve learned a lot of lessons from it, but it takes a lot of effort for them to get that right. But also organizations themselves, a lot of these organizations are vast organizations with complex systems and environments and data, and it takes a lot of change to get this through. Even simple changes within organizations when it comes to data and information take a long time to process that. So, we are seeing a fundamental shift, particularly for the big multinational organizations that are operating in lots of different jurisdictions.
Streeter
So there’s a big shift underway. Deirdre, do you think e-businesses and global companies are sufficiently aware and prepared for these changes?
Hogan
I would say that it’s a mixed bag. I think as Ben alluded to there, the multinationals are aware of it. They’re already dealing with it in lots of jurisdictions. So for them, this isn’t going to be that much of a surprise. But yeah, certainly for smaller companies, mid-size companies, those who don’t have as large an international footprint, I think they’re not as aware of it as they should be because of the significance of the change that's coming for them. And even more so, if you think of smaller domestic companies in any of the EU jurisdictions, they may not even be in any way digitalized as of yet. This change is going to be massive. It’s a mixed bag. We as advisors need to make sure that we’re out there getting the word out about what companies need to do to prepare for this because regardless of timing, it is coming and it’ll come around relatively quickly.
Streeter
Pierre, let me bring you in. What do you think the first steps of companies should be then in getting up to speed with the challenges and the opportunities ahead?
Arman
Trying to understand how you are going to be impacted by this change in the different countries where you’re operating would be the first step. There is also, again, a timing issue in terms of we see each country will do a staggered implementation with the largest taxpayers going first and then go down size. At which point in time, depending on your size and where you operate and how much of an operation you have in that country, are you going to be caught in that net is very important. That is the first thing. The second one is ensuring that internally you have the right awareness of the different parts of the organization on the scale of that change, because even though obviously all of us today are part of tax, it is not just a tax change. it's a business change, right? It will impact every single part of the organization, and so everybody needs to be aligned on that. Then, usually at the same time, especially if you’re a large company, your IT resources might be extremely scarce, or they might be booked for the next three years already. How do you then align the fact that you may need them and you may need them to do a lot of change sooner than expected? Because without you being ready to comply with any invoicing regime in a particular country, we cannot do business anymore, right? It’s as simple as that. You become non-compliant from day one. The implication of BIC, and so to get ready, I think the assessment phase is very, very important to really understand how you’re going to be impacted. What do you have to do, and where do you need to be in the next three, five or 10 years to be able to comply with that and hopefully to also future-proof your business, because as Ben said, that trend is not going to go away, right? The introduction of e-invoicing, whether it is in Europe or other parts of the world, is not going to go away because it has shown very clearly that it leads to a reduction of the tax cut for each country, right? This is not going to go away. People need to be ready.
Streeter
People really should get in gear right now. And Deirdre, I’m interested in what Pierre was saying about how this has implications for operations across the business. Should it be seen as a tax process?
Hogan
Yeah, Susannah, I think it’s a tax process and it’s part of the tax function’s remit to take ownership of it. But I would agree with what Pierre said is that it’s not just tax and they will be the ones who have to shout the loudest to get things started to get moving on the requirements. But ultimately, the invoicing, real-time reporting, going down to data requirements and the tax function, as much as the tax process, we need to make sure that the data that is needed to meet the requirements are captured throughout the detailed processes. So, it’s not just a downstream piece of tax reporting anymore. This is right across the business. Certainly, while it is not just a tax process, tax do need to own it. They need to start talking to the other stakeholders in the business to ensure that the data elements and the changes that are required throughout that end-to-end process are put in place, or at least that there’s a plan for them over the next couple of years.
Streeter
And going back to you, Pierre, do you think ViDA could, in fact, bring about real benefits to organizations further down the line? We’re talking about all these changes, but what bright spots can you see?
Arman
I think there are a lot of them, like any long-lasting benefit, there is a painful investment first that you need to go through before you will get there. But if you think about what Deirdre just said around the fact that this is not just a downstream change, but it needs to be an upstream change, because you need to get your transaction right from the beginning, from a tax standpoint, simply because you need to expose those transactions and that data directly to the tax authorities straight away. Sometimes they even need to approve that transaction before you can actually complete it, right? We are moving from a world where you get all your transactions at the end of the month or the period. You message the data, and then you find the return to a world where, from the beginning, the tax authority has complete visibility on your transaction as a taxpayer. While that may sound scary, and it is a big change to how it works today, what that then means essentially is you start to have visibility as a taxpayer and as a business on a lot of the data points that would typically need to wait after your books are closed to start to get a hold of. So it can bring, I think, a lot of benefit in that sense on the visibility side. There is also an efficiency point because e-invoicing in most countries at the beginning is really to smooth the business landscape, to make the business landscape easier for all companies in that country to transact with one another and remove friction as much as possible. So, having to jump onto the e-invoicing wave also means that you have to improve your cash collection. You have to have better controls and checks, which means you get better data faster, which has a lot of benefits for a whole range of, I would say, part of your organization. Tax because we are very data-heavy. We are a very data-heavy part of the organization; we need a lot of data constantly for every other business, but there is also a huge range of benefits for others as well. I think the last thing as well is the investment today that a business might need to make to get ready for ViDA can also bring a lot of benefits in the future because whatever you are doing today can future-proof yourself, which means that then when there is another country that will bring the invoicing, you are basically ready for it, you don’t need to rip everything off and start from scratch again. You already have a place, another platform to be able to deal with that, not just from a technologist and a process standpoint. Your people are used to it. They know how to react to that change, how to manage that change, and how long it’s going to take as well. There is a lot that companies should think about, as well as some of the benefits they’re going to get by being ready for ViDA.
Streeter
Absolutely. So, Deirdre, given the transformation outlined there by Pierre, to what extent will ViDA enable larger organizations to step back and consider overall strategy rather than seeing ViDA as a quick-fix solution to immediate issues?
Hogan
I think it gives them a really good opportunity. It’s timely at the moment because a lot of companies, not all, but a lot of companies in the market are going through SAP upgrades, moving to SAP S/4HANA. And so from a tax perspective, they can step back and say to their business, Hey, if you're going through this implementation upgrade anyway, then let's talk about tax and let's talk about the tax needs now and going into the future. Let's make sure tax is a seat at the table as we look at the strategy for our ERP system. So that's very timely. And if you're lucky in that position, that's what tax functions should be doing. Suppose you're not in that position where you're going through already an ERP upgrade. In that case, you should certainly look at it from a strategic perspective and talk to your other stakeholders in the company around what is the IT journey, what is the finance transformation journey in your company over the next years, and how does this fit into that. It's very important that communication of these changes is brought forward to the table to the C-suite, CFOs, the finance lead, etc, so that they're aware of it. It is a significant change. It's going to cost a lot of money for companies to implement it. Doing it on a one-off basis doesn't make sense where it could fit into wider strategic initiatives of the business. So I think it's very important that they try and look at it from a strategic perspective and where they can't, where there isn't anything else happening, then they need to make sure that there is an awareness again of the end-to-end changes in the process that is needed. And again, the data elements throughout the cycle and in different business processes will need to be updated as well. So, strategic changes should be done on that basis, but ultimately, making everyone aware of the business of these changes coming down the line is crucial.
Streeter
So Ben, Deirdre is talking about the wider strategic opportunities. Do you think this could lead to changes in the ERP system? Will ViDA provide the impetus for investing in new technologies coming upstream?
Woodfield
First and foremost, I agree with everything Deirdre and Pierre have been saying that when managing this change, you have to look at all the different interactions around the stakeholders, the people, the processes, and manage this strategically. But if we zoom into technology and what does this mean for technology, the ERP system or the technology ecosystems that our EY clients have, they're going to have to make change and they're going to have to invest in that. Whether that is buying new technology they require to meet these needs or leveraging technology that they've got already or in a much more sophisticated way to be able to do that within ERP. So you're seeing a huge amount of investment within the market from both the ERP providers, but also tax technology providers to get these solutions. So it's definitely clear that they're going to have to spend the money. The key is, how do you make sure that you invest it in a strategic way? What we've seen to date around requirements when it comes to tax or e-invoicing is a bit of frantic - we need to respond to each of the tactical needs. And that led to a lot of investment by organizations not just in technology, but investment of their time and energy to implement all these solutions, which has led to a fractured ecosystem. And if we think about what's at the heart of this, is having one source of the truth for data from both a tax perspective for the tax authorities and for an organization to manage their risk. We really need to see a strategy around that investment. And we're seeing the evolution of the role of the tax technologist or the tax process owner. And they've got a key role here in ensuring that when organizations are looking to invest that technology, getting that business case over the line around investing it in the right way, but building a platform and an ecosystem that can manage these changes not only from a come and get the invoice out the door, but also, is it reconciling with what we're telling the tax authorities? Does it reconcile with what we're saying for our compliance processes? The other key thing is these requirements are going to come thick and fast. We've seen countries go already, but with the announcement of ViDA, it means this will come down the line quickly over the next five years. Those organizations that have taken the time to set the strategy around this pick the right technology ecosystem, are going to be able to manage this in a much more efficient and strategic way than tactically responding to the needs. They might need to spend some money on doing that. But longer term, they'll prevent the investment that they need to do every single time one of these requirements comes along.
Streeter
I can see you nodding, Pierre, as Ben's talking. What is your take on this? Clearly, internal alignment will be needed for this implementation. So, how should this be best tackled?
Arman
Well, I always nod when Ben speaks, that's why. But yeah, he makes a very good point, right? And if you think about the alignment internally that you need to have to be able for one of these implementations to be a success, it is actually quite tricky. One of the challenges I've seen is sometimes people don't know where the whole e-invoicing project should sit. Is it tax? Is it IT? Is it finance? Who has the budget? How much IT should be involved? We've seen sometimes it's an IT-led project, which, as much as I love our IT colleagues, is not the right answer because they would not understand the intricacy of tax needs. Then, when tax needs to lead it, this is a big project, so it could be close to a full-time job sometimes, depending on the scale of the project. How do you have enough resources to be able to deal with that? We've seen quite a lot of challenges in that space around the alignment of the different stakeholders and also the budget. I had the example quite recently where a client started obviously to get ready for the French implementation of e-invoicing. Now, France has pushed the implementation goal for now, at least, we are still determining exactly by how much. The client's answer was, Well, I cannot do this project now because I will lose my budget, right? I need to keep on going. You need to have a lot of these quite complex interactions internally to make such a project a success. Because again, once you want to start to get ready for a go-live date, or I should say testing date, it's not just tax that needs to test the system; it's the whole business. Because when the whole business will need to use this as a way forward, for instance, from a cash collection standpoint. So, is everybody aware of how this is going to work and what they need to do? So, to me, that's one of the main challenges; the alignment, because it touches every single part of your organization or close to it.
Streeter
So it touches every part of the organization, Ben, as Pierre has been pointing out. So what are clients telling you then about who should take responsibility for driving this process, given it will affect so many parts of the business?
Woodfield
Yeah, it's been really interesting actually talking to clients. It's almost better off looking at that longer-term view. Anyone that's worked with me over the last 15 years, I've always banged on about the importance around technology and data. And there's always been a period of convincing our tax stakeholders that it's their responsibility to drive it forward. We're very lucky that we spend a lot of time with clients, but we also spend a lot of time with clients in big forums. I'd say when you go back a couple of years when we were looking at digital tax requirements, there was a general interest from a tax perspective in what these requirements were. But there was definitely the majority of the feeling in the room was, this is something that IT and finance are going to sort out for us. So it's our role to let them know it's going on. But really, we don't want to lean in and take too much responsibility around the processes and the data, because ultimately they're owned by other people. We've seen a seismic shift from that over the last couple of years. Earlier this year, we ran our global forum for indirect tax, and the e-invoicing subjects were probably the most subscribed sessions that we were having. But interestingly, in those sessions, those same people a couple of years ago telling me that they don't want to be involved in this and actually it's the rest of the responsibility of the business. They're learning from their experience that they've got a massive role to play in this. And as a tax stakeholder, you're ultimately there to partner better with the business. The role that they've got in e-invoicing is to partner better with the business to not only look at the solution in a strategic light, but also start to think about managing risk and helping the client go through that journey. So, it's been a real seismic shift in the expectation of the role of tax. The other really interesting thing is you talk about my clients. I probably talk to more IT people and finance people than I've ever spoken to throughout my entire career, because once we've got it on the table around e-invoicing and being able to deal with it, that tri-party agreement of working through clients, how do we deal with it? There's an acceptance between all of those stakeholders that we need to work together to be able to get the right answer. There is a misconception that this is one person's responsibility to care for that. Ultimately, this is a business risk that needs to be managed. And therefore, if you're in tax and you're not engaging in that, or you're thinking that this is not your responsibility, you're falling behind your other organizations at taking that step forward and investing into that journey and thinking about how do we solve this business problem that we've got to be able to get it the right way that could be efficient for the business but also manages our risk and the responsibility that we've got to our tax authorities.
Streeter
So the realization is clearly dawning, not just on managing risks and implementation and cooperation, but also the costs involved, as has already been pointed out. Deirdre, how can e-invoicing potentially reduce expenditure over time? What are the prospects for ROI?
Hogan
From an ROI perspective, it'll depend on every company, and where they are and what they do and end up investing in this because, like any technology, you can have state-of-the-art or you can have just good enough. As Pierre alluded to earlier, e-invoicing will level the playing field. It'll make things easier for businesses. And real-time reporting in and of itself are probably anxiety-inducing for tax functions at the moment. Once they get their data to where it needs to be, they should see a reduction, I would expect, in audits, in penalties and interest for errors because the more automated their processes are and the better quality data that they have, which they will need to have if they're going to be reporting transactions in real-time. Either the quality should be better, therefore, they should have less errors. In that sense, from a tax administration perspective, there'll be a return on investment in time, but certainly the cost of implementing it and how it's managed. And that will again vary from a business-by-business perspective, but at least every company will be dealing with the same thing. So there's an equity, if you like, in how this is being implemented, albeit, as I mentioned earlier, if you're a small domestic company and domestic invoicing is being implemented, you might feel a bit more of an unfair burden in the sense that it's going to take you a lot longer to get up to speed. I think there are pros and cons for this. But the return on investment it's a tricky one because it does depend on what the spend is upfront on it. But certainly, there are benefits around cash accounting as well down the line, managing your transactions, managing your throughput, and doing so in a real-time basis. There are winners and losers in it and certainly potential for return on investment. But again, it depends on how it's implemented.
Streeter
So, Ben, we've talked about some of the difficulties or challenges that could be in implementation. What do you think are the biggest risks for companies throughout this process?
Woodfield
I think this whole process is really, really challenging. But when I take a step back and think about what's the biggest risk, especially maybe from a tax hat on, ultimately it's data. It's the most critical component of your tax position. It's the ultimate goal of a tax function to be able to manage risk, and that risk is in the data. Ultimately, you could build the perfect system and ecosystem by investing in technology, and you could do it in the most efficient way. But if you end up sending data through that system that is incorrect or is not giving the right answer, ultimately you're creating a lot of risk. I think we've had lots of experience with organizations investing in technology and processes before to make their traditional compliance processes more effective. Those organizations that have just seen it as a technology-only solution without addressing the data and the risk of the data going through those systems have not really seen the real effectiveness of that investment in technology, and they blame the technology, but ultimately it's the actual data going through that. So ultimately, for me, I think the biggest risk here for organizations from the tax perspective is data going through this process with no real control around it. Tax departments to date have been very good at protecting organizations from risk coming from the tax authorities and reputational risk by putting really good compliance processes in place further downstream. The more this gets automated, the more that goes away. So the more pressure is on getting things right the first time, and therefore the impact on those processes and the outcome of that is the data that goes through those processes. That, to me, is the biggest thing that people are going to have to manage.
Streeter
And staying on that data point, if I can put it that way, Pierre, what further opportunities, perhaps on a global scale, will ViDA open up given they can give the tax and finance function such extensive, live, granular data?
Arman
In terms of further opportunities, if you think about where the global trends are going, the global trends are showing you that, at least from an indirect tax standpoint, it's tax authorities wanting more and more data more often, earlier on into the process and slowly trying to get rid of the final filing. They don't need you to file with your return anymore because they have all the underlying data immediately. I think one of the opportunities as well is as you have tax authorities who are starting to become very, very advanced in their own tech capabilities, being ready, and what ViDA will help companies to get ready for is being able to match the technology capability that the tax authorities have. And so when we are in a world where you could have a slow death of the VAT return, and it won't happen by tomorrow, but it might happen 5, 10, 15 years from now. It's already started in countries like Poland, for instance. You start to be in a much better position because you have confidence in your data upstream and you can very, very easily challenge whatever the tax authorities is going to say to you on your data, on how much VAT you owe them. Whereas if you're not confident on that, you start to have less technology capabilities that someone who will audit you, which is never a good place to be. That's also a confidence point, right, as a business. And as a tax function, you can help your organization be ready for that. I think that the third one is, if we step outside VAT for a minute, because it has such a transactional aspect, there are a lot of opportunities when you know your data and you have visibility on it to start to use that same data set for all those sorts of purpose throughout your organization, and if I maybe give one single example of that. We know that about 40% of the data points that you need for your ESG reporting as a company can come from your indirect tax data because a lot of the data points are similar. As a tax function, you start to shine for your board by saying, Hey, I can give you 40% of your whole ESG reporting because I have my game in order, because I know exactly the data that I have, what I can give you, and I'm 100% confident about it. So if we go back to one of the core that we all talked about throughout this podcast, which is data. Now, getting that in order allows you, as a tax function, not just to get ready for what ViDA and I guess all the e-invoicing and reporting will bring on, but also to start to also help other part of the organization as well, because you have access and you're confident about that data in the first place.
Streeter
That's really interesting - the extent to which ViDA could be seen as empowering. Well, we are nearly at the end of the podcast now, but just to finish, I'd really like to get a key takeaway from each of you. I'd like to ask you what really should be at the forefront of mind as companies adjust to this new way of working. What key takeaway should listeners take from this podcast, Pierre?
Arman
Well, I'm going to be very boring, and I'm going to say start early. Do not delay it. You may think you have time because such and such country have delayed the implementation. You do not. Do not underestimate the impact and the amount of work just at the assessment phase that you need to do in order to get ready. That to me is the key because it's a bit like when you are in school, you are being told repeatedly, do not leave it to the last minute. Consistently, everyone does, and it feels the exact same way in the business world. You, just all of us, find ourselves being like a broken record. Just do not leave it to the last minute. Please do not leave it to the last minute, and still a lot of companies do. That would be if there is one takeaway for people who will listen to this: please do not leave it to the last minute.
Streeter
As a parent of teenagers, I really get that right now. Ben, what's your key takeaway?
Woodfield
I'd go with something along the lines of embrace the change. I think we talk a lot about how difficult this is going to be, how challenging it's going to be, a lot of risk around it. But there's a real opportunity here for organizations to try and embrace this change. It's an opportunity to look at what are you doing now that you could do better and use this as a platform to build, well, how are we going to manage this data and this risk going forward? If organizations get this right, not only does it mean that they are compliant with what's going on within the jurisdictions. But in theory, it should give them a better platform to look at that data to help them be a better business partner as well, particularly from a tax perspective. Data is key and it gives so much insight to tax functions and people that work in tax to be able to give better internal advice to the business, manage the business in a better way. And therefore, instead of looking at this as a burden, properly embrace it, lean into it. Don't be afraid of tackling it. Don't be afraid of talking to stakeholders about it.
Really embrace the change and be a change agent because it's setting up the way that we can work for the next 10, 15, 20 years. So there's a real opportunity here.
Streeter
Ben, thank you. And finally, Deirdre.
Hogan
Well, Pierre and Ben stole all the good talking points, so I'll come up with something. But no, I agree with what Pierre and Ben said, but it's around data, data, data, data. Ultimately, if you're going to be reporting in real-time, you need to ensure the quality of data is where it needs to be. Finally, that goes back to how your systems are set up and what's your source of data. So it's taking that holistic look at your end-to-end process and understanding those data elements and to what Ben said, engaging with your stakeholders, all those other relevant stakeholders in the other business processes that you will need to help you get ready for this change. So can't say it enough: data.
Streeter
Well, thank you all for a really fascinating discussion. Really good holistic podcast on this subject. Some great insights on why ViDA is set to be such a game-changer. Thank you so much for your time.
Hogan
Thanks, Susannah.
Arman
Thank you.
Woodfield
Thank you very much.
Streeter
I'm Susannah Streeter. I hope you'll join me again for the next edition of the EY, Tax and Law in Focus podcast. EY, building a better working world.
The views of third parties set out in this podcast are not necessarily the views of the global EY organization nor its member firms. Moreover, they should be seen in the context of the time in which they were made.
Presenters
Susannah Streeter
International broadcaster and financial analyst