Women in Privacy - The path to leadership

Roobi Alam: [00:00:00] Thank you for joining today's webinar where we have the opportunity to hear from two leading women privacy professionals around their privacy career journey, how they practice inclusive environments, and their point of views around some privacy hot topics. Let's start off with some introductions. Next slide, please. So, I'll start with myself. My name is Roobi Alam. I'll be your moderator for today. I'm in the privacy practice for EY Canada. And I've been with the firm for over 20 years where I have experience in risk management, consulting, and data privacy. And I've worked with large multinational clients in financial services, insurance, energy, and the technology sectors. I'm a mother of four, three of which are young ladies and very excited about today's webinar because we're focusing on two important topics, women and privacy. Separately, I believe the two are powerful enough, but when brought together, the force is unstoppable. I'll now introduce our panelists. Next slide, please. First, we have Marie-Andrée, who is the Chief Compliance Officer for Desjardin Group. As a lawyer, a member of the Quebec Bar since 2009, she has previously held various positions in compliance, privacy, and financial crimes. In addition to her compliance and privacy roles, she's also the Chief Anti-Money Laundering Officer and the head of Fraud for Desjardin Group. Marie Andre is passionate about mentorship of women and youth, having been appointed in leadership roles early in her career. She's always eager to share her experience to encourage younger women to take on new challenges. And on a personal level, she stays active by playing different sports and loves everything around true crime. Next, we have Naomi, who is the Chief Privacy Officer and Associate General Counsel at Enbridge. She oversees Enbridge's privacy office and provides strategic advice on matters related to data governance and business ethics. Naomi is passionate about inclusion, innovation and fostering future generations of professionals and community leaders. She has served on a variety of boards and committees, including the YWCA, Edmonton Board, and the Law Society of Alberta Conduct Committee, and most recently, the Banff Center Foundation Board. She is a strong supporter of the Big Brothers Big Sisters program and has been a Big Sister to Emily for over ten years. Naomi is most proud of her family, spouse Craig, daughter Anya, and furball Frankie. And she tries to stay active so she can keep up with them. Welcome, ladies. Next slide, please. So, for today's agenda, we're going to speak to these wonderful two ladies around three key areas. First of all, understand what their path to privacy looked like, including their leadership roles, how they practice diversity, inclusion within their personal and professional lives, and then get their viewpoints on some privacy hot topics. We'll then end the session with some closing remarks and spent some time on a Q&A session. So, the first topic we want to hear about is your career journey. Was it always in privacy and what were some of the most valuable experiences you had to prepare you for your leadership roles? So, question one, can you ladies tell us a little bit about how each of you first got interested in the field of privacy? What was particular appeal of this field? We'll start with Naomi and then Marie-Andree.

 

Naomi Schmold: [00:03:35] Hi. Thank you, Ruby. And thanks to everyone for joining today. It an absolute honour to be invited into this conversation. I think privacy and the advancement of women are both topics near and dear to my heart, so I was really excited to be able to participate in the conversation and I hope everyone on the line feels the same way. Please jump in with questions. These things are more enjoyable for everyone, I think, when it's more of a conversation. Great question, Roobi. What interested me about privacy? I think when I was reflecting on this question, I really started to recognize a core value, a fundamental core value that I hold, which really at the root of it, it's all about equity. And I think privacy speaks to equity. And I think, you know, there's a huge public policy piece around ensuring that people, humans, are being placed front and center of whatever is being developed. And so when we talk about privacy, for me, it's really about data. Data about humans, data about individuals. And this is fascinating. So, as we develop into our digital world that we're fastly and furiously getting hurled into, you know, how is data going to be viewed, used, analyzed and data about humans. Right? And so, and there is a real link to human rights and, you know, civil liberties. For me, I'm interested in ensuring that there is always a balance and keeping that human piece at the heart of what we're trying to do as we develop into the future, into the fourth industrial Revolution. And keeping that humanness at the heart of it. And so, when I look at personal data, I think about things like human dignity, I think about things like human agency and autonomy and really making sure that we as humans are holding that near and dear and holding on to that, both individually, that's important, as well as collectively. So, as a collective, you know, we really should be looking at and being concerned about the balance of power. So, I see privacy kind of blending into how we engage as citizens, as a collective. And in a healthy democracy, we're really wanting to ensure that the balance doesn't tip too far towards the few who have power over, you know, individuals, citizens, etcetera. So that's kind of at the core nugget. I'm very passionate about this issue as a human, as a woman, and it's just such an easy link to be in the privacy space because that really is at the heart of, I think, what we mean, I mean, when I speak about privacy. It's that human dignity, human autonomy piece of the puzzle. I'll stop there and turn it over to.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:07:07] Excellent. Before, I turn it to Marie-Andree, I think you said something essential there Naomi. The whole concept of human at the center. Human at the heart, right? Like a lot of the times, even when I work with my client, different clients, and we kind of go through the privacy requirements, you know, sometimes it's like overthinking or over reengineering, you know, processes. And it's as simple as just, you know, if you just think like as a human, how would you like your personal information to be treated and protected? It just becomes, the conversation is so much more easy to digest and think, you know, that's the key piece so how you said it was brilliant. So, thank you for that. Marie-Andree, I'll pass it back to you now.

 

Marie-Andrée Alain: [00:07:52] Yes, thank you, Roobi. Hi, everyone. Really happy to be here with you today on this International Women's Day. I think talking about women and privacy, it's amazing. Didn't think I would be there one day, but really happy to share my ideas and my thought with you. And I would as well as Naomi said, happy to answer to your questions, so don't hesitate. We're going to be happy at the end to exchange with you. So, maybe to talk a bit about my journey to privacy. At first, to let you know, I started in compliance, so I guess that was my main topic of interest first, having a legal background. But then privacy caught my attention, and I had the chance to be exposed more and more to that area. I think I'm totally aligned with Naomi about the human factor of it. I think it's important we have a role to play. Same thing in compliance about protecting members and clients. I have the chance to work for Desjardins Group, which is a financial institution, but we're a cooperative, so something special when we compare ourselves with other big banks here in Canada. So, that's something that's really important. We want to work in our best members and clients’ interests. We want to put those interests in priority. So, it's totally aligned with what I'm doing in compliance and privacy and other topics. So, it's really the human factor, the fact of doing things the right way. Yes, we're going to talk later about how to use data. It's not that we want to stop that use, but we want to make sure we use it the right way in the people's interest. So, I would go at the same way and say the human aspect of it, the protection aspect, the gatekeeper role, it’s really what got me into privacy and still get me going as of today.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:09:39] Excellent. Thank you, Marie-Andree. And I think that's exactly it. I think the natural build for privacy, you know, it did stem from legal requirements, compliance requirements. But in this, you know, the last couple of years, it's actually being redefined to really kind of include more of that human aspect of it and the trust aspect of it. So, lots of new kind of key buzzwords coming up. But at the end of the day, you know, it's just enabling that the importance of privacy is becoming a priority now for most organizations. Okay. So, moving on to question two. What advice can you share for women and other professionals in terms of career progression advancement, specifically people hoping to access a leadership role? Marie-Andrée will start with you and then we'll move to Naomi.

 

Marie-Andrée Alain: [00:10:29] Yeah, of course. So, great question. I think if I have one word to give that as an answer, it would be curiosity. Be curious. Be open to new opportunities. Privacy is everywhere, and it's a great thing, even though people sometimes think it's different, but it's everywhere. So, it gives you the chance to combine your different interests. For example, we have to mix privacy with marketing, with fraud, with security, with everything. So, I think you have to stay open to new opportunities. Stay curious to develop your own leadership as well, because we're talking about access to a leadership role. You can be your own, have your own path. So, privacy is giving you the opportunity to have your own profile as a privacy leader in the organization. So, some of us are going to be more towards the security aspect, the information security, the data governance. I told you I'm coming from a legal background. So, that's what's really interesting because there's no, I would say in my view, there's no typical profile to work in privacy and to be a leader in privacy. There's so many different profile that we can have. So, that gives you a lot of space to develop your own path. And I think you should as well get inspired by others that are in the field or in other similar or adjacent field, not directly privacy, but other leaders. You can bring your own style in privacy because everything is still in the making, so you have the chance to influence to find your way around privacy. So, I guess that that would be my my suggestion. Stay curious, stay open, and find your own way to do privacy.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:12:14] Excellent. Thank you. Marie-Andree. Naomi?

 

Naomi Schmold: [00:12:18] Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Marie-Andrée. I love the curiosity piece and that angle. And I love the ability to, as you mentioned, create your own path. So, I come from a legal background as well. When I started at Enbridge, I wasn't in the privacy space. I was doing more legal operations, kind of serving a variety of different in-house clients, but really gravitated towards privacy because it was an emerging area that needed attention and there was the kind of sense that this was going to be growing and becoming something big. And so, I had the opportunity to make that case for us at Enbridge to develop our own privacy office and really have a center of expertise around privacy. And in that, you know, really diving into these different areas, like you mentioned Marie-Andree, it's not just privacy, it's privacy and security. Privacy and marketing. Privacy and customer service. Privacy and you get to build all these different relationships within the organization so think that, you know, when I think about career advancement and any tips, I suppose I would say you know focus less on roles and org charts and titles and think more about, you know, what's my vision here for what's coming in the future? And then how can I build relationships and align different teams and groups to a shared vision of how we can get ready for what's coming, but also continuously improve what we have? And really, again, with that human focus, that individual centered focus around what we're trying to build on the privacy side. And I also think that leadership is, and that concept of leaders, and leadership is changing in modern times. I think a modern leader is really about, you know, somebody who can collaborate and build those relationships about influencing without authority, about really putting that human at the center as well. And if you do that, it doesn't matter what level, where you are in an organization, I think if you put those things forward, you really commit to those things, you will start to be recognized for that as well. So yeah, that would be my thoughts.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:15:00] Excellent, great responses. So, you know, I heard like three kind of key buzzwords there. I heard curiosity. So be curious, like see what else is out there, understand what other roles are doing. And then the second one is challenge. Challenge kind of, you know, what is going outside of your mandate. So, you know, looking at opportunities for collaboration, which is kind of the third word there. So, it's funny how that the three C's, but totally agree. I think, especially naturally within the privacy realm, it's a domain where, you know, where the regulation is going. It's no longer sufficient for these departments to operate in silo. They need to kind of collaborate with other teams. And so naturally, you know, that collaboration is going to happen. You're going to have to kind of think outside of the box. How do we stay innovative but at the same time be able to meet these requirements. But, you know, I think in this space, it's those three C's are naturally being applied. But for any other field of interest, I think applying those will help you kind of move the needle and move forward within your respective areas. All right. So, moving on to question three. Marie-Andree, can you speak about the importance of mentorship and allyship? And specifically, how can we get more women in privacy leadership roles through mentorship?

 

Marie-Andrée Alain: [00:16:37] Yes, of course Roobi. So, really two important topics in your question, mentorship and allyship. So, I want to touch base on both of those topics because they both really, really intrigue something and they implicate me a lot. So, first of all, maybe talk about mentorship. It's really important to have mentors, but to act as a mentor as well. And when I think about mentorship, it doesn't have to be always that formal because of course you're going to have some standard formal mentorship program internally with all the path to go through and the steps. But I think it can take so many different forms within your life work, your professional work, professional life. You have to find people who inspire you. So, that would be my main goal when I try to look at mentors around me. And it doesn't have to be someone coming from compliance, privacy or even from my own reporting line or even from my own organization. So, I think you have to be able to open yourself to new opportunities and look at people who inspires you for something? It can be about their political sense or the way they make their point during a discussion or how they can find allies within the organization. And you should reach those people to build a connection. And as I said, it doesn't have always to be a big formal mentor mentorship relationship. It can only be some few punctual exchange. So, you can be influenced, and you can leverage those learning afterwards during your career. I think you also have to act as a mentor. I think this is something I commit myself to because I think I have the chance to have access to great mentors, so I should as well share what I have, even though sometimes I'm not sure it's always perfect, but I think it's me and it's important to contribute to everything and I'm going to bring back my point before to say, and Naomi talked about it, about privacy and what is fun about privacy, you can reach to colleagues all around the place. I remember my first mentorship was with a colleague from marketing. So, usually you don't think about a Chief Privacy Officer to mentor someone in marketing. But you know what? That was a great relationship. And we're still talking as of today about how we can influence each other, how I can bring my own view into his challenges. Then same thing for me, because it's a two-way street. It's a mutual relationship. It's not only the mentor who shares thing and have some answers to questions. It's really a great exchange. So, I think it's something going to push you forward and make you evolve and it's going to be really rewarding as well when you're acting as a mentor. Second point about allyship, it's really important to have allies in the privacy field. I think it's important everywhere, but I would say in privacy, it's really, really, really important to have allies and you have to find them when everything is going well within the organization, because when something is going to arise, a problem, a noncompliance, something you have to talk about, it's not really the time to find great allies within the organization because in a panic mode, it's not always the greatest discussion. So, I often say timing is everything. You have to build your internal network, find people who see things maybe not totally the same way as you, but you can influence, and you can make sure they're going to be there with you. They're going to stand in a fight if a fight is going to arise. So, you're going to have to be able to find those allies and internally as well, natural allyship, I think you should develop with the Chief Data Officer, Chief Information Security Officer. You should also think about if you have a Chief Security Officer and the IT sector as well. So, you have to find people internally who are going to be able to champion your ideas when something comes up. And it's really important. You should also have some allies. We talk about it in marketing business lines, all those other sectors as well. So, think I sometimes say I think 80% of my job is relationship management and then the rest is content. But just to explain to you that it's really important to build great relationships and networking and privacy, it's going to make your job so much easier. Trust me on that.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:21:12] Excellent Marie-Andrée, those are some great examples on both fronts. And I guess, you know, one question or maybe advice for the audience is, a lot of the times people may feel intimidated or not sure if they can reach out to somebody to help play that role for them. And so, how would you encourage or what advice would you give to those individuals? So, if they, you know, if they have somebody that they don't really have a strong relationship with today but somebody that, to your point, they admire and want to build that relationship, how would you recommend them kind of taking and reaching out to that individual?

 

Marie-Andrée Alain: [00:21:49] I would say just go for it, Roobi, because you're gonna be surprised how people when people contact me, I'm usually flattered and I'm really happy to share. So, I think we're, and women of course, I'm gonna talk for myself. We sometimes put ourselves on our own boundaries saying, oh, it's not my place to be. You know what? It's your place to be. You should reach them. Maybe they're not going to be able, as I said, to give you an hour's, monthly, or weekly or a big mentorship, but at least they're going to be there. They're going to know you're there. Maybe they're going to say, you know what, now I don't have the capacity to help you out as much as you would like, but we could lunch and then I could refer you to someone else. So, I would say, be brave. Just go out there and try it out. Because when I have requests, honestly, it's really rare that I'm going to say, oh no, I don't want to take time with you. I mean, I'm always flattered, and I want to jump in and I want to help. So, I would say try it out, because it usually works. And it's going to be so beneficial for you at the end.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:22:51] Yeah, no, that's excellent point there, and I think that's probably a misconception. I definitely had it, is that thinking that it has to be like a formal program or a formal relationship where you're meeting X period of time, but you know, it could be ad hoc. It could be, you know, having a call or sending a LinkedIn message. It really is just a means of reaching out and connecting and slowly building that relationship. Okay, great. So, we just touched on how we can learn and grow through mentorship but there's also another key form of allyship that can help you take your career to the next level, and that's sponsorship. So, Naomi, what is a career sponsor? How can they help you progress and where do you find one?

 

Naomi Schmold: [00:23:36] Great questions, and this topic is near and dear to my heart. I love talking about sponsorship. Don't get me wrong, I love the discussion around mentorship, allyship, all very important. And yeah, mentorship is a big portion of my career development, both being a mentor and a mentee. And as you would have seen at the beginning, I take mentorship outside of the workplace and one of my most impactful mentorship relationships I think has been with my little sister from the Big Brothers Big Sisters program. We've been partnered for, well, she's an adult now, so we're not a formal match anymore. She's now 20, but we were matched when she was ten. Emily and I, and yeah, that has just been so profound for me as a human, being the  mentor. I tell her all the time that she has impacted me in more profound ways than she'll ever know and most, most likely more than I've ever impacted her. But yeah, I'll stop talking about Emily now because I get emotional when I think about it. But sponsorship, so sponsorship is key, I would say, within organizations and sponsorship for me is taking perhaps the mentorship concept. Maybe it's a bit different, but it's really taking it up a level and it's really about, you know, as individuals. And so, part of the question Roobi was, how can you find one? That's part of the conundrum is that you really can't in a way that you can ask for a mentor or reach out to somebody to ask for mentorship. Sponsorship is a bit different in that you really don't, you can't necessarily make an ask. It's more about, people within an organization actively choosing to champion someone else. And when I talk about sponsorship in the context of advancing women, I think it's incumbent upon all of us, you know, in this virtual space to really think about, okay, who in our networks are, you know, amazing women, talent, who are doing great things and perhaps need just a little bit more of the floor for that to be showcased. Or who perhaps need to be talked about in rooms that they're not in right now. Or who perhaps need, you know, a bit of a nudge maybe to go for that next role, to go for that next opportunity. And so, it's really about all of us choosing to be sponsors and then thinking about who we can sponsor and doing that, committing to that. And I have, you know, as a personal challenge to myself, I'm wanting to sponsor women who do not look like me this year. This year this is my personal challenge to myself who do not look like me. So, you know, really looking at women who are underrepresented in other ways in our organization, and really actively sponsoring those individuals who are incredibly talented, bright, you know, brilliant women and putting my money where my mouth is, I suppose.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:27:12] That's amazing, Naomi. And very beautiful. At the end of the day, I think just you said a lot of key things that anybody, you know, would feel lucky to have you kind of as their sponsor. And guess, you know, one question, though, is as sponsors, you know, it's our it's our job to identify that and, you know, where we see it really help enable those individuals and women to move forward and giving them that support that's needed. But is there anything that individuals can do to kind of take a little bit of accountability to say, you know, they're ready for that next step? And, you know, they're committed, and they want to, you know, go above and beyond. And but they need somebody to help them move forward and give them that visibility. Is there anything that you would suggest or recommend to those individuals?

 

Naomi Schmold: [00:28:10] Yeah and think it's along the lines of what Marie-Andrée had mentioned. It's speak up and go for it. You know, connecting with others in the organization who you think would be able to assist in, you know either removing roadblocks or allowing for maybe more profile. So, allowing for a stretch project perhaps in a different area or just yeah, just really allowing for a different perspective, different set of eyes. And once you make those types of connections, asking for advice, asking how they went about, you know, receiving their opportunities within the organization. You make those connections and then you become part of who's on that person's radar when thinking about future stretch projects or thinking about future opportunities. So, you become visible, right? By putting up your hand and really being proactive in reaching out and being brave and reaching out. You become part of that person's radar. And the more times you do that, I think the more likely you are to really receive that concrete kind of committed sponsorship. And the thing is, you will never know likely that somebody is your sponsor. And that's the conundrum around it. You will likely not often know if somebody is advocating for you behind closed doors, but the more connections you make and the more conversations you have and the more coffees you go, you know, you invite folks to, the more that that's going to be a likelihood that people will see that you are looking for advancement, that you're looking for other opportunities and will champion you.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:30:05] I would say, you know, from speaking from my own experience, working with various different individuals, both women and male essentially is, you know, speaking up and to recognize that you're going to be your best advocate. You know, I think there's this misconception that, you know, doing a great job of work is just enough to get recognized. And definitely it is. But sometimes being vocal and calling that out, especially if you're not in a large organization where there's many people who are doing great things, but really kind of being your own voice, to call that out and bring it forward, to encourage, you know, don't feel like, you know, you feel like you're showcasing or you're bragging because at the end of the day it's your career and you're your best advocate. So, you know, where you see those opportunities and where you see, you know, you've kind of gone above and beyond really calling that out. All right. Well, thank you for these amazing insights, ladies. You've given us some great advice around personal career progression and ways in which we can carve out a path to leadership with the help of key allies. Now, let's delve a little bit deeper on some strategies at the organization level to champion and uplift women. So today, so for this year's theme for International Women's Day, it's embrace equity. Now, we often hear equality and equity being thrown around as buzzwords, but in order to ensure we're really meeting the objective of everyone having an equal opportunity, we need to understand what they mean in the differences. So, equality means each an individual or a group of people are given the same resources or opportunity versus equity recognizing that each person has different circumstances and allocates the exact resource and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome. So, instead of focusing on the means being equal, you're focusing more on ensuring the end is equal. So, question five. With all that being said, Marie-Andrée, what are some examples of workplace initiatives that you've seen or been a part of that take an equity-based approach to helping women access and thrive in leadership roles.

 

Marie-Andrée Alain: [00:32:26] Yes. Thank you, Roobi. So, we have the chance at Desjardins that diversity and inclusion is a priority. We have the tone from the top coming from my management. So, it's something we're really passionate about internally. And I guess it connects to the fact that we're a cooperative, as I said before. So, all those inclusion and equal access, it's all things that matters for members and clients, but it's the same thing for employees and managers internally. So, we have, of course, we follow numbers to make sure we're still aligned. We have training programs. We also have mentorship programs specific on diversity and inclusion. So, we have all those great initiatives, but I think the important part is making it live through your organization. So, if think about my team, I have to talk often about it. I have to make sure people are aware of it existing because there's so many things within an organization, as you know, so it can get lost through all the content that we have. So, we have to give time in meetings to talk about diversity, inclusion. We have to do those training, those great discussions as well with managers only with employees. So, we do all those different initiatives so people can feel like we're in control of the topic because let's say it clearly, it's not always easy to have discussion around all those topics, the bias that we can have, the recruiting aspect of it. So, we don't want to feel like we're judging people or questioning what they're doing. We mostly want to bring new ideas to the table, so people feel inspired. And since we thought we started this program a few years ago, I saw a total change within my team about who we're recruiting, people we're putting forward. So yes, we have to say if we don't talk about it, then it's going to get lost in all the other priorities because we have to be efficient, we have to be compliant, you know, all those regular objectives. But think this one is really close to my heart, and we have to give it time and space. For women as well, of course, we have the chance to have flexible schedules. We can work from home. So, we're really trying to accommodate women. We also have a community internally called Desjardins Women. It's a network, it's a networking place. We have some specific training conferences. We have mentorship as well. We have specific training programs for women. So, I think we have a great, great sets of initiatives but as I said, we need as leaders to put it forward, to leave time and space to talk about it, because that's the problem sometimes. There's so many great things done in an organization, but if we don't assure that we make them live in our own team that it's not going to happen.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:35:26] Amazing. Thank you. Naomi, anything from you, from your perspective or personally or professionally at Enbridge?

 

Naomi Schmold: [00:35:34] Yeah. Thank you. I love this question and I am happy to jump in here because I'm so proud, I have to say, so proud working for Enbridge. In this space, we have, Enbridge has in the last few years really prioritized our work in DE&I and setting really external, very visible, transparent targets in this space. So, when we talk about equity and outcomes, you know, Enbridge recently announced that by 2025, we're wanting to get to 40% of women representation within the organization. And that's all the way up to the board level. So, that is a very transparent, clear, loud commitment to equity, I would say. And internally we have, and Marie-Andrée kind of articulated what organizations are doing in this space, and we're doing, you know, a lot of similar things. I think it's really important to do this work from a variety of different angles. We have a really strong ERG system at Enbridge as well, it just makes me a very proud employee to be in that scenario. But in the last few years, what Enbridge has done as well, which I think has really enabled a shift in the culture, is to produce a diversity dashboard, which is an internal and external tool that folks can drill into. It's an interactive tool that tracks representation at all the different levels in the organization. And so, you can drill down into different areas, different groups, different teams to really see visually the representation of women within the holistic organization. And privacy was a part of developing that dashboard. It was very much done with a privacy by design in mind. So, ensuring that we weren't revealing any identities within, you know, the drill downs, etcetera. So, that was a really exciting project that we, you know, attempted internally. And I just think it's done so much in terms of enlightening the organization and allowing these conversations to happen. And we weren't scared. I was really proud that Enbridge was brave in coming forward with that kind of transparent tool because there is sometimes some reservations around that. Right? Being clear about where we're not maybe meeting the mark or where we have room to grow or improve. And we weren't scared about that. We didn't shy away from that. And it just really drove the conversations. And really, I think at the end of the day, we'll move the needle incredibly.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:38:31] Yeah. No, that's amazing. And would even, you know, give kudos to EY, specifically our cybersecurity and privacy practice, naturally, over the last couple of years, really pushing to get more women in this space, not only, you know, it's a typical male dominating space, but for whatever reason in consulting, it was lower. So, you know, when this initiative kicked off, I go, you know, part of it is also understanding kind of that equity piece, like why, why aren't they coming forward? We know they're out there, like we've got the stats of the different privacy and security even they've gotten university now privacy programs. And so, we know that they're attending and they're graduating but why aren't they coming? And so, part of that analysis was really to look at, okay, you know, at the end of the day, the outcome might be equal but what's the means? Like, how are we trying to attract them? How are we trying to pull them? How are we writing our job descriptions? Like that would intimidate them if we're asking for certain things. And so, I think having that analysis really changed the outcome to say, okay, you know, instead of just focusing on the target, understanding why we're not there yet today, and then kind of close that gap up to help fix the problem. So, slowly but surely, we are increasing our numbers. I think we're about 30% right now, so not at the halfway mark yet, but it's happening. Okay. Moving on now. So, before we get into the hot topics that typically require the collaboration, we talked about this a little bit earlier between many groups, including privacy, IT and data governance. I want to get both your thoughts on a common challenge privacy professionals face around making the business case for privacy. There's this common misconception that privacy means you can't use data when in fact, good privacy practices can be enabler for the law and compliant use of personal information. So, what are some ways that helped you gain buy in for privacy across your organization? Naomi, we'll start with you and then we'll move to Marie-Andree.

 

Naomi Schmold: [00:40:51] Yeah, sure. I think it's a combination of things. I think it's, for me, when we were establishing our privacy office in late 2018, it was quickly becoming apparent that not only was thinking about privacy and, you know, how our organization was handling personal data, not only was that the right thing to do, not only were we thinking about, you know, our legal and compliance obligations as to what was it, you know, currently in place and to what was coming. But it was also thinking about it in the context of our ESG goals as an organization and thinking about our, you know, our stakeholder groups whose personal data we hold and we steward as an organization and thinking about it from their perspective, right? Thinking about, well, how would our customers expect their data to be safeguarded and handled and how would our employees expect their data to be safeguarded and handled, and how would our, you know, hundreds of thousands of landowners that we interact with on a regular basis expect their data to be handled and safeguarded because that, again, boils down to trust, right? Ultimately, it comes down to stakeholder trust and doing the things that we would expect from our perspective as individuals. And I fall into that bucket as an employee of Enbridge. I am an individual whose employee, my employer has, right? So, it's really kind of putting the human again, putting that human-centric spin on it, to be able to connect the dots internally for folks within the organization to frame it in those ways that really link up to our own corporate objectives, our ESG goals. Our strategy near and long-term for, you know, sustainability for where we want to be, who we want to be seen as an organization now and into the future. And really focusing on that trust element, I think is as much as I've been able to continuously have those conversations. Trust is part and like focal point for those conversations as well.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:43:04] Yeah. Amazing. So, you know, I would agree with you in the sense that a big driver around where we're seeing kind of that collaboration naturally happening is instead of focusing more on the risk or, you know, the fines associated with noncompliance, it's kind of looking at the positive side of things and it tying it back to more as an organization. You know, what is our brand? What is our goal? What are, what is our commitment to our employees and our customers and translating that and linking it back to kind of how privacy can enable it and move that forward. Marie-Andrée, anything from your perspective?

 

Marie-Andrée Alain: [00:43:46] Yes, of course I would had really interesting what Naomi has to say and totally I'm totally agreeing with her. I would say maybe you should learn to talk business. You should be able to build solid and effective business cases. This is my experience internally. You have to walk the talk, and then talk the walk. Let's say it that way for that. So, you have to be able to explain the concrete advantage of privacy. You have to align it with the vision, the mission of the organization, because if you don't, then it's going to become, and I can say it because I'm working on that, just the compliance part of it. And it's not that glamorous and it's not easy to sell. So, you have to push it a nudge forward saying, you know what, it's going to be an advantage. We're going to be able to differentiate ourselves from other organization because we value privacy. We act on it but for that to happen, you have to be able to pitch your privacy and your initiative. So, they're going to be prioritized at a higher level. You should also align with other partners, I talked about it before, like information security, data governance. So, when you have one common speech through the organization, that's going to make sure we comply with many, many topics at the same time, then it's going to help you to have the priority you want to for the initiatives. And then, I would say one part, one important part I talk often with my team about is to act as a strategic and influencer, sorry. So, you have to share your ideas with others. And it brings us back to the discussion about allies. So, you have to be able to contaminate positively other people about privacy. So, when something comes up, then they're going to be allies for you. They're going to be able to reach out to you and placate you. And even when it's going really well, they're going to be there to defend the privacy aspect of it with you at the table. So, once again, allies are everything. So, you have to be sure you are connected with your organization, connected with your colleagues. So, privacy become a common goal and not only a priority for you at the end of the day.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:46:03] Excellent. Okay, so, let's get your thoughts on a couple of hot topics. So, the first one is an important trend in today's privacy landscape is the rise of artificial intelligence and advanced analytics. So, the next question actually has two parts, and I'm going to point it to you, Naomi. So, part one is one of the major concerns around the use of AI or ML is the algorithmic bias. And so, what are some ways to monitor and mitigate this risk? And then part B of the of the question is one aspect that is often overlooked is how AI can be used to service privacy. So, what are some interesting applications of AI and machine learning to protect privacy?

 

Naomi Schmold: [00:46:54] Yeah, great. I'm going to try to keep this brief, because if you get me started on this topic, I tend not to stop. But with respect to some of the concerns around bias being injected into these AI models, those are real concerns. Real concerns. And we here on International Women's Day, I think really all need to be thinking about that. I think we need to remember that these machines are trained on internet data, which is sometimes or maybe often Internet garbage data. And I'm thinking of a study that I just can't, it's at the back of my mind here but it was really about how, you know, machine learning was working and trying to, trying to highlight these bias issues. And I think, again, I'm trying to think of the actual study name so I can cite it. It'll come to me, but it was about showcasing this machine learning application where I think it was 100,000 photos, images were shown to the machine that was doing this learning. And ultimately, at the end of the day, the questions to the machine and to the model were, well, okay, now describe a woman to me. Right? And the output was, well, women belong in the kitchen because the machine was looking at all these pictures started to put together that they were seeing a lot of picture images of women associated with kitchens. And so therefore, women belong in the kitchen. And so, what models are being trained on is often flawed, often biased data or making flawed or biased connection and so, we have to kind of, as humans, guard against that. And that's really important to ensure that there's those lenses put on what's happening when we're programing these tools and this. So yeah, I think there are major concerns, major risks. I think internally we're looking at how we evaluate those risks. So, are there ways to implement AI risk assessments with respect to some of our vendor partners or our service providers who are deploying AI shiny new AI tools and technology in different spaces? How are we ensuring as an organization that we're working with providers who are also thinking about these things to make sure that those aren't being interjected into what the output is of those exercises? On the second part of that question, Roobi, I think what we're doing internally, how can AI be used for privacy? We're embarking on a privacy journey that is deploying AI tools and technology to understand our landscape with respect to where our PI data is. And that might not seem, you know, like data for good, AI for good. But in my mind, it really is driving to ensuring that we understand where our PI data assets are so that we can appropriately safeguard and secure those data assets to ensure that those humans are safe and secure. Right? So, yeah, deploying new tools, new technologies that are really looking at how we, you know, how we ensure that there are, privacy safeguards in place ultimately at the end of the day something that we're exploring and really actively adopting right now.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:51:04] Yeah. No, that's excellent. And it's quite interesting because if you kind of look at a lot of these AI or machine learning technologies and kind of who developed them and, you know, how much privacy was actually part of that journey or that development in the considerations, there's naturally a huge gap there, right? And so I think that's part of the struggle with dealing with these risks is that the whole concept of, you know, privacy by design, even security by design, is it actually being applied with these new emerging technologies. And I'm not sure how many on the call are familiar with the chatGPT, but it's kind of over the last couple of months, real hot. AI tool that you type in any question and it literally, you know, gives you a response, kind of almost making us consultants obsolete end of the day. But if you actually type the question about what is the benefits and the risk of using AI, it clearly states that, you know, although it can definitely transform a business, but there's these risks around the quality of data from biased conclusions, you know, making sure it's ethical and doing the right thing, and you know, at the end of the day, you know, is it sound from a security privacy perspective? So, the response in itself said, yes, it's great to use these, but at the same time, it's not as simple as just implementing it. Right? There has to be that human element to kind of go through that analysis to make sure how you're configuring and implementing these tools. Reduce those risks that, you know. Naomi, you called out there. Alright. So, just looking at the time. Last question, Marie-Andrée. With the introduction of Bill 88 in Ontario and the transparency around workplace privacy monitoring, how could this affect women given they often require flexibility as they balance multiple roles personally and professionally.

 

Marie-Andrée Alain: [00:53:16] Yes. So, first of all, let's start with the fact that I think Bill 88 has a great concept behind it, because I think it's important to be transparent about your practices. Yeah, we have to be honest. We have to monitor our employees. We have to make sure we secure our environment within an organization. But it doesn't mean that it should be secret or kept away from employees. So, I think it totally makes sense that we're getting there. The starting point for that is to first understand your practices, because when we try, we started to look at it, it's not easy to understand what is being done internally and you have to understand what you're doing and you have to be okay with those practices because when you say it out loud around the table with other colleagues, sometimes you realize, yeah, I'm not sure I want to put it out there. So, I'm not sure we should be doing that as well. So, I think it's really important. It's a starting point. Usually, we talk about the front-page test internally saying, are you in security? Are you okay with defending this practice on a front page with a journalist? If something comes up and usually it's a great starting point to say, oh, yeah, maybe we should tweak it out or find another way to attend, achieve our goals because it's always starting from a good place. I know people want to protect their organization with what happened at Desjardins. It's really, really important for us, but at the end of the day, we have to keep in mind that those are humans behind those employees’ numbers and computers. So, we have to respect them, protect them, make sure we respect their privacy as well. So, I think it's really important that you challenge your practices before you can make it transparent. And you have to be sure as well that you're tracking or monitoring program. Consider a typical work schedule. So, we think women, sometimes we have different schedule. We have some obligation during the day that we have to work late at night. I think the COVID 19, even though it wasn't that nice, it helped the pandemic with those new work attitudes that weren't there before. So, now I think it's mostly common, so I think it's going to help women at the end of the day, because it's not only women right now who wants to have a typical work schedule or have anything around it. So, I think in a way maybe the pandemic and maybe it's one of the only positive aspects of it, helps us as an organization to realize that there's not one standard model with 9 to 5 and being in the office every day. So, you have to be sure that you're tracking and monitoring program, take that into consideration so you don't discriminate anyone at the end of the day because of that.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:56:04] Excellent. Yeah, you said one. I love that test there. If you can't say it out loud, maybe you should reconsider doing it. So, it’s as easy as it gets. Alright, so we have four minutes left. Thank you, ladies, for your insights, but before we move to questions, can you just spend 30 seconds to give your final thoughts on the future of privacy opportunities and challenges that you foresee coming down the pipeline? Naomi.

 

Naomi Schmold: [00:56:34] Yeah, Great, great. And again, I could speak forever on this as well, but I think to summarize what's on my mind is really ensuring that we are being diligent in guarding against what could easily become wading into the territory of human exploitation with the data. The power of data is becoming just really exponential. Who has that data is really becoming a question mark. My sister-in-law and I were chatting the other day and we were commiserating that Nordstrom's was leaving Canada and what were we going to do? And she kept on saying, don't worry, the metaverse is coming and we can all, you know, our avatars will all go shopping together and we'll get into, we don't need, you know, physical Nordstrom here in Canada and so then we had this conversation and I just started thinking about, yeah, this avatar is going to have like my exact measurements and it will know my gait and it will know everything about me. And ultimately, at the end of the day, who is going to own my avatar? And that means who's going to own me? You know? So, all these questions that I don't think we have the answers to yet, but this is where I think the future of privacy is going is imperative that we have very smart, diligent, diverse voices at these tables trying to solution some of these things that are going to continue to be outstanding question marks until we get our arms wrapped around them. And so, yeah, that's what I'm thinking about.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:58:19] Excellent. Thank you. And Marie-Andrée.

 

Marie-Andrée Alain: [00:58:22] Yes, totally agreeing with Naomi. I think it's going to be full of challenges. And maybe that would be my closing remarks saying I'm going to bring back my concept from before. Be curious. Be open to new challenges because it's evolving at so fast pace right now. It's crazy, but it's fun. It's really challenging. It's really interesting. So, I would say I don't know where it's going to land because privacy, as I said, privacy is everywhere. But I think there's going to be so much great opportunities within privacy and for all different profiles within the field, the specific field of privacy, it's going to be amazing. But of course, we're going to have to find ways to ensure privacy while still talk business and be able to be around the table and how we can be there as a gatekeeper without stopping everything from happening. So, it's going to be, honestly, some a few amazing years and I would say maybe ten years because now we're talking about Bill C-27 in Canada and then we're going to see all those changes everywhere. So, I think it's going to be amazing, but it's going to be a lot of work. So, get everyone. I hope everyone is getting ready for that because it's going to be really interesting years in privacy, I think.

 

Roobi Alam: [00:59:37] Excellent. And I know we only have one minute left, but we did get a few questions and respond to them separately outside of the session. But there was one important one that I think we can call out is do individuals need a legal background in order to get into privacy? So, definitely have my viewpoint but Naomi, maybe we can start from your viewpoint on what your thoughts are on that.

 

Naomi Schmold: [01:00:01] Yeah, you bet. And the simple answer is no, no, no. You do not need a legal background to get into privacy. I'm going to call out my amazing team and on this International Women's Day, have a tremendous team at Enbridge that I get to work with and work for and think some of them are on the call. Most of my team do not have a legal background and I don't think that's necessary at all. I think what's necessary is curiosity. I think what's necessary is, you know, it's great to bring other skill sets to the table regulatory compliance, info security, technology. There's just so many different skill sets that allow a privacy professional to flourish. So, it's such an inclusive space that way.

 

Roobi Alam: [01:00:45] Amazing. Okay, well, we are out of time. What an amazing hour. Thank you, Naomi and Marie-Andrée for your time and sharing your rich insights with us. And thank you, everyone, for joining. Please look out for an email for the next couple of days, which will have a recording of this session and our speaker’s contact information. Please reach out to them or your local EY advisors with any of your questions. And there's also going to be a short survey that's going to pop up momentarily. We would appreciate if you could take a moment to complete that survey. Again, thank you, everyone, for taking the time to join this discussion. Have a great rest of your day and happy International Women's Day.