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Why the human CFO is vital in the age of AI
In this episode, Perry Wiggins, CFO at APQC, discusses technology’s impact on finance and what it means to be a human CFO.
Related topics
As the chief financial officer (CFO) for American Productivity & Quality Center (APQC), Perry Wiggins leads the finance and accounting teams, as well as serving as a member of the executive team. His career before APQC centered on the health care and non-profit sectors.
While there is often a substantial focus on technology and its impact on finance, Perry is passionate about using technology as a tool and an enabler, but not forgetting the human dimension and the idea of the “human CFO.” Through his experience, Perry has realized that he can find a way to be a good steward of the organization, a great financial leader, but also be mindful of the impact that his decisions have on people's lives.
Perry shares perspectives on the findings from the APQC 2023 Financial Management Priorities survey, including why he expects to see the number of organizations using advanced data visualization tools to rise rapidly from the current 15%.
Key takeaways:
- Artificial intelligence (AI) will be significant for finance functions and likely will be very impactful to finance leaders and organizations in the areas of logistics, finance, contract and content management.
- Achieving strategic goals depends upon the people in your organization. They have to be engaged, equipped, empowered and continuously encouraged in order to achieve the ambitious plans set forth by management.
- It is important to focus on the connection between numbers and people. Understanding this relationship helps solve the challenges many organizations face.
For your convenience, full text transcript of this podcast is also available.
Myles Corson
Hello, I’m Myles Corson from EY and you’re listening to the Better Finance podcast, a series that explores the changing dynamics of the business world and what it means for finance leaders of today and tomorrow by sharing insights from global leaders on key topics affecting the world of corporate finance.In this episode, Perry Wiggins, Chief Financial Officer at APQC (the American Productivity and Quality Center), discusses the work APQC do to provide organizations with the data and insights they need to work smarter, faster and with greater confidence, and he also shares results from APQC’s annual financial management priority survey, which found that data management was the main priority for the respondents’ finance functions.
It’s a thought-provoking conversation with Perry, so let’s get started.
Perry, fantastic to have you on the show. Thanks for joining us. Can I ask you to share a little bit of your background and your experience in your career to date?
Perry Wiggins
Myles, thank you for having me. It’s an honor to be on this podcast. I serve in the role as Chief Financial Officer for American Productivity and Quality Center here in Houston, Texas — or APQC. I've been a part of this great organization since 2017. In my role here, I lead our finance and accounting operations, as well as our information technology group. Prior to joining APQC, my executive experience was in the health care finance.Corson
I suspect many of our listeners are very familiar with APQC and the great work that you do. Perhaps that those that haven't heard of you, can you share the background on the organization and what it is you do?Wiggins
APQC is a research and education institution that was started by our wonderful founder, Dr. Jack Grayson, who led the Price Controls Commission under President Nixon. The organization is almost 50 years old. And what we do is, we help organizations work smarter, faster and with greater confidence. We are the world's foremost authority in benchmarking and best practices and process and performance improvement, along with knowledge management. We're very proud of the fact that we own the largest set of benchmark data with over four million datapoints, and we curate a very robust online library of research-based best practices. Our unique structure as a member-based nonprofit makes us a differentiator in the marketplace as we partner with over 500 member organizations, many of whom are Fortune 1000 companies and large nonpublic companies throughout the world.Corson
A fantastic resource to tap into, and alongside all those benchmarking insights, you obviously produce some thought leadership. One of those is your financial management priorities. The latest research for 2023 has come out, and very interested, if you could share some of the key findings from that.Wiggins
Let me explain a little bit about what this research is. Each year, APQC conducts its annual survey of finance professionals to explore the focus areas, initiatives and challenges APQC members and customers are addressing. For our 2023 financial management priority survey, topics included were around cash flow management, financial risk management, finance function, process improvement and finance data management. The survey responses represent finance function, professional firms and people, and individuals across all industries and geographies. APQC leverages this information to report back to our members and customers as part of our mission, but it also feeds into our agile research agenda for our finance function research.In our 2023 survey, we had 330 participants, and there were several findings. When these participants were asked what areas in their organization’s finance function were priorities for 2023, the area of finance data management was stated as the area of focus for 62% of our respondents. That's even above finance process improvement or cash flow management and risk management.
Corson
It wasn't a surprise to me that finance data management was top of that list, given a lot of the conversations we have and given the proliferation of data. What was interesting to me, though, from the research was that only 15% of the organizations surveyed are using advanced finance data visualization tools to add to their understanding of use of data and the relationships between the various elements of data. What are some of the biggest opportunities you see around finance data management?Wiggins
Yes, it was a big surprise to see that 15% were using some of the advanced visualization tools. As finance functions become more reliant on advanced tools beyond spreadsheet charts and graphs, I expect that percentage of respondents to go up over the next few years, but to a degree, whether the percentage is 15% or 95%, it means little to me if the presentation and the analysis of data does not spur or produce action.I, like many of your listeners, can sometimes get report fatigue. I see dashboards and KPIs as soon as I open up our ERP (enterprise resource planning) each morning. My teams in finance and accounting produce a number of dashboards and scorecards and KPI report-outs to our operations teams. I personally prepare visuals for our board and other stakeholders, but without having the ability to make sense of all that incoming deluge of information, a leader in the organization will be unable to make decisions and choose a proper course of action. That's the human aspect of what we do as finance professionals, in my mind. I have to tell myself oftentimes, and I urge your listeners to understand, that while advanced tools and RPA (robotic process automation) software and, of course, AI applications can process or think faster for us based off of programming algorithms.
What will separate us as leaders and what makes us human is the capability to choose or decide courses of actions and choose and decide tough decisions. That's what your investors are seeking.
That's what your board has charged you with. That's what your employees demand and need of you — a leader that can synthesize all this data. No matter how it's presented, whether it's presented in something rudimentary and simple or something very beautiful and dynamic, we have to be able to synthesize all this data and all this incoming to make informed decisions that benefit the organization and our employees.
Corson
All of those points about actionable insight, focusing on the outcome in the role of finance, simplifying a lot of that complexity and presenting it in ways that nonfinancial audiences and stakeholders can engage with and use constructively is really powerful. One of the other themes that came through was cyber risk, and that was noted as a top-risk management priority in the survey. Based on what you're seeing, what do you think CFOs and finance leaders should be focused on in that cyber area?Wiggins
It's been said that even with the best intentions and systems of preventing a cyber attack or data intrusion event, these types of events have, one, happened already or, two, will happen at some point to your organization. That's a scary thought. If it is inevitable that your organization will experience this, what is your response? One of the activities we will be strengthening here at APQC is our response to these types of events. We do quite a bit in terms of best practices in preventing these types of intrusions and cyber attacks, but we have to also operate in the world that assumes that one day we will be the victim of such an event.What we are now starting to work on is the tabletop exercises to prepare our response and how do we engage in a post-cyber event? Who do we notify? Customers, board members, investors or law enforcement? What do we do in terms of our customer agreements? How do we move and report out to our clients? So, those are the things that we are working on. We feel here, at APQC, that we have done a great deal of strengthening our systems to prevent an attack, detect attacks and terminate attacks that are in process, but should something happen, we want to be prepared to have a post-event response that meets the moment.
Corson
As a CFO, you're at the heart of that organizational response team which is important. There's been a lot of focus on technology and its impact on finance. You talked very eloquently about technology as a tool and an enabler, but not forgetting the human dimension, and this idea of the human CFO. Can you talk a little bit more about what that means for you?Wiggins
Myles, one of the things that I learned early on in my career as I was coming up through the health care ranks was that people are important and you can't disregard the value of people.Sometimes, as the health care finance leader, you make decisions that are detached from the reality of the hospital operations. You are trying to do things that are in the best interest of your organization's financial health, but sometimes, those decisions can be detrimental and harmful to the people you're trying to serve.
I think back to my early years in a hospital organization where I made decisions to pursue aggressively patients who had receivables due to the organization for services that we provided. In my mind, I was doing what was best for the organization, but when I had to talk to some families, I realized that some of my decisions were destroying and damaging people's lives. And I realized that I can find a way to be a good steward of the organization, a great financial leader organization, but also be mindful of the impact that the decisions I make have on people's lives.
And when I think about being human, that's played a role in my life here at APQC as the CFO. I think back to 13 March 2020. This is the day that we decided that we would send our employees home indefinitely due to lockdowns that are being instituted here in Texas, and in particular Harris County and across the country at that time. We were all scared. The stock market was in freefall. Businesses, government services and schools were locking down. The economy was entering a recession, and for APQC, we had scared employees.
I remember doing the first all-staff meeting in late March or early April 2020. I was being very transparent with our employees along with my CEO, Lisa Higgins. Of course, at that time, we were all working from home, so I’m on a companywide virtual call, trying to convey empathy and care for our employees. And I just laid it out to our employees, and I said, “Guys, here's what's happening to our business. Operations are challenged. We see our reserves shrinking, but I told them, given the type of services and products we offer, many of which are online, if you dig deep and focus on your work, we as an organization have a path forward, and here's the reality. Guys, if we are facing a prolonged downturn, here are the steps we would take before anyone ever loses a job. If you, the employee, see us, me, the CFO, and my CEO, engaging in these cost-reduction steps, you will know that layoffs may be coming, but until then, your job is not at risk. So, give the organization your very best.”
And I believe that level of transparency, starting with me and my CEO, led to us going through that year without any layoffs, but then following up in 2021 with a record year and then, in 2022, breaking the record that we set in 2021, and now here in 2023, looking at another record. That's without laying off anybody in 2020 and being transparent with the organization and our employees about where we stood and how we can navigate through this storm.
Corson
Perry, thank you for sharing that. That's really powerful. Those words you use, empathy, transparency, the mark of successful leaders, and we have data that shows that finance leaders that get that human element right are more likely to drive success for their organizations, drive success in transformation, as you've just articulated in terms of what you've seen in your own organization. And I always come back to the Tom Peters quote. “The business is people.” It's people which is leaders, serving people which is your employees, serving people which is your customers, and if we get that right and continue to focus, and ultimately this is about how we drive success for all those different individuals and the people, we'll be more successful as organizations.Drilling down on that, I think it is a challenge for many finance people that are used to the black and white, the analysis. How do you measure your success as a human CFO? How do you translate all the great stuff you're talking about and actually show the returns?
Wiggins
Well, and measure success with profitability. (Laughs). So, at the end of the day, I'm still the Chief Financial Officer for APQC, and I'm looking at all the financial metrics that any CFO will be looking at. I have all the burdens of cash management and reserves and liquidity that any CFO will be looking at. I have the responsibility to help run a profitable organization as any CFO would. No matter what organization you are in or what your mission is that may be the driving force of your organization, the long-term viability of the company depends on profitability.When I say human CFO, the difference is that I am fully aware that the number one vehicle to achieving strategic goals sits in the human capital of the organization and the various divisions and its various departments and various teams that comprise the organization. In my experience, this human capital is far more important than any financial capital of the organization, but the human capital of your organization has to be engaged, equipped, empowered and continuously encouraged in order to achieve the ambitious plans set forth by management. But if they are, that turns into a financially successful organization for the long term and short term.
Corson
To achieve that, to get that level of understanding, are there some things that you've done to make sure you understand in the broader context of your business and the people within it that you can share?Wiggins
The biggest thing that I've done here in our organization is that I state often in our all-staff gatherings when we meet, whether in person or virtually with all of our staff — and we have staff all over the country, and at times, we've had members of our organization work in various parts of the world — but when we have these all-staff gatherings or the electronic communications go out, there are two things that I've learned that take years and decades for organizations to build up, and I state this to our team members all the time, and those two things are financial reserves and culture. They take years for organizations to build up, but they can be erased in a matter of months.APQC employees, they hear me say this. I tout our strong financial position. We are in a place of financial strength that we've never been before. We have a rock-solid balance sheet, but our culture also is just as strong as our financial reserves and our financial position. Neither one of those got to where they are overnight. We're an organization that's almost 50 years old, and that culture has taken almost all 50 of those years. We have over a year’s worth of financial reserves on our books — no debt. That took time and great financial management, but we can also burn through those reserves, and we can also burn through our culture, if we do not manage those closely and with intent.
Corson
This focus on culture is a theme that we've seen through a lot of our research that a lot of finance leaders that are focused on, because it's so important to get right. You touched on some of your reaction post-pandemic or through the pandemic period. One of the legacies that we're all still working through now is the balance of remote work and in-person work, and one of the conversations is what impact is more remote working having on culture for organizations and that connectivity. I'm interested in your journey from an APQC perspective. And do you have concerns about losing some of that cultural strength that you were describing if people continue to work remotely?Wiggins
Even before the pandemic, APQC had a hybrid work model. You could work in-office three days a week and you work from home two days a week. Those two days you would choose. We felt it was important then, after having gone through a very sentinel event here at APQC in 2017, which a little rainstorm called Hurricane Harvey flooded out our building, we had to adapt very quickly to remote work.
For your listeners who may not recall, Hurricane Harvey was in the Gulf Coast region of the United States that did quite a bit of damage through the Texas and Louisiana Gulf Coast, and in the Houston area, we took on nearly 40 inches of rain in a matter of three days. And our headquarters sits next to a body of water and, of course, that body of water happened to merge into our building in 2017, and we had to send employees home for six weeks until the building was safe to return to. And we learned then how important it was that we had a system in place and a technology infrastructure in place that allowed employees to work from home and be impacted in a very minimal way, and that continued on post 2017. And so, by the time we came to a global pandemic, we were already prepared. We already done the necessary steps to have employees work from home, while still being productive and monitoring and measuring their productivity.
But one thing that we noticed in 2020 was, in the beginning, when people were sent home back in March of 2020, we would engage in virtual happy hours or virtual meetings to try to keep people engaged. And in the beginning, in March and April 2020, all the employees were on these calls that were voluntary. Then as we got into June and July of 2020, and the fatigue started to sit in that we're really going through a global pandemic, we started to see less participation in some of these voluntary events, and as we got further along in the summer and school start, trying to start back up in the late summer, early fall of 2020, we just saw just like a fatigue and a sourness among our employees. And we made a decision then that as soon as we were allowed to from the state, we would try to bring back employees in a very safe way, and we did.
In the fall of 2020, we made the decision to bring back employees into the office who were Houston-based. We brought back employees on a very small scale. Only 30% to 40% of our employees could be in the office any given day, but we had plexiglass all over the offices. We had mask enforcement, but we felt like people being around each other was so critical to what we were doing and what we are trying to hold on to, that we wanted to bring our employees back as safe as possible, also maintaining and preserving the culture we were starting to see dissipate, and we were starting to lose a grip on.
Corson
I appreciate you sharing that journey that you went on. One of the things we're seeing, Perry, is the impact of technology and automation and some of the concerns that creates for finance roles. How do you focus on the positive aspects, the opportunities, and not so much on the negative and the fear mongering that perhaps goes with that conversation?Wiggins
Now throughout the course of human history, and particularly maybe the course of American commerce history, there's always been fear of new technologies coming onboard that would eliminate the need for human beings and put humans out of work. I always try to let people know that they shouldn't fear technology. They should embrace it, and I think about it from a very — if I were explaining a technology to first graders, this is how I’ll explain it to even people throughout my organization or friends and family — that if you look at the most basic definition of technology, I define it as advancing tools that help you do things easier and faster.At one point in human history, advancing technology was a hammer and a saw, and later on in human history, the big advancing technology was a plow, and maybe later on it was a locomotive, and then automobiles and planes. All throughout human history, the technology, the new and advancing technology were the things that helped human beings do their jobs and live their lives in a much more productive way — to do their jobs in a much faster, easier way. And that’s where we are even here in 2023.
Many of these technologies are going to also do our jobs in an easier way, in a faster way, and in a way with much more validity and greater confidence. Don't be afraid of those tools, whether it be AI, whether it be RPA, whether it be advanced financial data tools that we were talking about earlier. These tools will help us do our work lives easier and better, and if they allow us to do some of these difficult and mundane and timely tasks in a better way and a faster way, then we should embrace that. That’ll allow us to do more value-added activities down the road. I'm a fan of this podcast, and I would advise your listeners to listen to one of your episodes in 2018 with the head of SAP, Deepak Krishnamurthy.
Wiggins
That episode sounds like it could be an episode for 2023, but it was one of your earlier episodes, and if your listeners want to hear a very forward-thinking approach to technology and how technology is going to change the finance function and change organizations from the enterprise-wide standpoint, that's a great episode to dig into.Corson
I appreciate the plug and you sharing that. That was a great conversation. I remember recording that and was blown away by some of the thoughts. To me, one of the key things to maintain relevance, to be successful is that continuous curiosity and desire to learn and understand new technologies and the opportunities that they create. And I know from our conversations, you're very much an advocate for that continuous learning. Can you just share a little bit about how you apply that yourself and how you try to inspire it in your teams?Wiggins
I definitely am an avid learner. Before I was a CFO, I was a father. I'm a father of two girls, and I've always preached to them that learning in school and becoming an educated individual requires that they ask questions. I've challenged them and my employees to learn something new every day, and part of the way, you learn something new every day is to ask questions. I told my daughters as they have gone through school that smart people ask questions. The kids sit in their desks and struggle, and they never ask their professor or their teacher for help they’re fearful in front of their peers, or they're prideful and think they have all the answers.It's the same way in business. I encourage my teams and the leaders that report to me to always ask questions. Employees will struggle and make mistakes because of misplaced fear that asking a question is a bad look on them, or ego and pride, thinking that they have all the answers. They never consider how they could have prevented a mistake from asking a question to their leader or going to a resource.
So, no matter if it's my daughters in school or members of my team, think how ridiculous it is to have someone available to provide you an answer, but either foolish pride or just shame prevents you from saying, “Hey, I don't know the answer, but will you help me learn the solution?”
Corson
Part of that learning journey is the role of mentorship. All of us have probably benefited through having great mentors through the course of our career. And I think I know from our conversations that that you feel that yourself. What would you say is your definition of a good mentor that can help with that learning and development journey? And how do you try and apply that in your own interactions with your team?
Wiggins
I'm only a good leader if I'm willing to talk about my mistakes. Certainly, I would love to tell my daughters that their dad never made a mistake. (Laughs). I’d love to tell my employees that going up the ranks of corporate America, I never made a mistake. I did everything right, and that's why I'm here as a CFO, but the reality is I've made mistakes. I've had failures. I had setbacks.
As a mentor to you, in my personal life as a father, here at work, as a leader in the organization, as an officer, let me tell you where my setbacks were so you don't make these same mistakes. Or when you do have these setbacks, here's what I did. Here's what I believe helped me get through it. Here's why I was still able to be successful and navigate the corporate world and climb the corporate ladder.
When I think about my own life and my own professional career, one of my earlier mentors was a gentleman named Paul Generale. Paul Generale was a CFO at one of the health care organizations I worked at early in my career, and he told me early on what's value from a CFO is the ability to communicate, tell the story and provide solutions. It's not enough to just give people dashboards and KPIs and report-outs. What does all this mean? What's the story behind this?
So, when I am presenting to the board, it's not enough for me to go over year-over-year variances and where we're underperforming and where we're exceeding the budget and where the strategic plan is in accordance with our roadmap that we established. But what is the story of the organization? Where do we stand at this point? That's what a good financial leader has to be able to do when they're working with their board, their operational leaders, their customers and their investors. And when there are problems, what is the solution? There's going to be on your dashboard and your email alerts a number of things throughout the day, throughout the week and throughout the month that are going to be flashing red. What's the solution if people are looking to you as a financial leader in your organization to help provide those solutions?
Corson
We've covered a lot of ground. Let's do some rapid-fire questions and, again, just to get a sense of how you built your career. We talked about education and continuous learning. Are there particular resources, podcast, books, et cetera that you use to stay educated and informed?Wiggins
Of course, in addition to the Better Finance podcast, one of the books I’m rereading is Fish! by Stephen Lundin, Harry Paul and John Christensen, which is about the Pike Place fish market in Seattle. The main character in this book is Mary Jane, and she's a corporate executive that has been charged with turning around an underperforming division in her organization. What I'm learning and relearning from that book is how critical having an energizing environment is to moving the organization forward sometimes as finance leaders. I'm a natural introvert. I'm very happy with being just sitting at my desk, digging through financial analysis and report-outs, financial models, and spreadsheets.
It's very important for the organization that even when you do work that's very siloed and sometimes isolated, can you make that work impactful for that employee? And then beyond that one employee, can you make it impactful for that team of employees? If those teams are energized and excited about the work they do and they feel like they're making a difference, departments will then grow and feel like they're being impactful, and those departments will then make divisions impactful and energized and so forth.
That is an approach that leaders have to start thinking about. Create the frameworks that allow employees to feel empowered and energized. In some cases, even have a fun environment, but because of what we do in our lives, how much time we spend at work, whether here in the office or working from home, you want to feel like the work you're doing gives you energy and has impact, and you're making a difference.
Corson
Is there a particular quote that you find impactful or has influenced your career that you can share?
Wiggins
I'll paraphrase a biblical verse from the Gospel of John that basically says the truth shall set you free. In my career, I've seen a number of leaders, organizations and boards that are trying to be something or trying to convince themselves that they are something that they are not. They try to convince themselves and their employees that circumstances that they're facing are not as challenging as they really are. These entities — it's like someone telling themselves that a period of rainy days is normal and it's perfectly fine.
If you're in Seattle or Portland, maybe so, and Houston as well, but if you live in Phoenix and San Diego, if you're seeing rainy days, something is wrong, and you have to be honest and truthful with yourself. If there are things in your personal habits that are preventing you from being successful with your team and in your organization, if there are things within your organization that are preventing it from being successful and reaching its goals, you have to take a hard look in the mirror and be truthful, and once you are truthful, going back to the quote, the truth sets you free, you're then liberated to do the necessary steps and can make the necessary corrective actions to achieve success and make the turnarounds and to make the improvements. But that only can happen when we are all truthful with each other and truthful within the organization.
Corson
All of us suffer from the stresses and the complexities of work. Is there anything you do particularly to maintain your personal wellbeing and balance?Wiggins
I spend a lot of time outside of work with my family at home, on the golf course as well, in my garden, and regular church attendance. To speak to my family time, when I leave the office, I try as much not to open up my computer when I get home. I'm usually in the office late, and when I get home, I try to stop work at the door. Certainly, I have a home office. I can do everything I need to do from my home office. But I try to give that time to my family to have that balance, to have that boundary, and also from a psychological standpoint, I think it helps me not to blur the lines between what I associate my home with versus my work environment.And I've been in situations in previous places of employment and previous times in my life, particularly during the very challenging 2020, where work and your home were starting to blend. You felt like your home life is your work life, because you’re just taking it with you and you never shut it off. And certainly, as an officer, you have to stay on. You're always on. You're always checking emails, but as much as possible if you can have some type of shut off when you walk through that door, especially if you're a father with young kids, it's very critical to your own mental wellbeing.
On the golf course, that's my passion. That gives me the opportunity to get away from buildings and sitting at a desk and actually being outside, engaging with nature. Same way for gardening. I realized through my weekly church attendance that no matter how great of a problem solver I am, there are just some matters and people that can only be fixed with the supernatural power. (Laughs).
Corson
Finally, we talked a little bit about technology earlier on, but is there a particular technology that you see as having a major impact on finance and why?Wiggins
If I plug a Better Finance podcast that I listened to, a lot of the conversation focused in on blockchain technology. AI will be significant for finance organizations, and we're already seeing some impacts. The underlying technology to cryptocurrencies or blockchain technology will be very impactful to finance leaders and organizations in the areas of logistics, finance, contract and content management. I'm very excited about the things to come and how we leverage blockchain technology. The proof of concepts are starting to come out. Now and future periods will show that there’s much more we can do there in addition to the revolutionary work that's being done in AI.Corson
As we wrap up, Perry, any final recommendation you give to our listeners as they think about developing themselves and their teams?
Wiggins
You can be the human CFO. Let the numbers allow you to connect with people. Understand that the numbers are never the answer. They're just part of the equation to solving the challenges your organization faces. Your fellow leaders and your board are looking for a partner. They're looking for a leader who understands the challenges they face and not just presenting to them another dashboard, another financial analysis. Let that be the opening to a partnership between you and your operations leaders and your employees as you go forward in your careers.Corson
A great way to end that, Perry. Thank you so much for joining us. Really enjoyed speaking with you and hearing some of your perspectives, and I'm sure that will be much appreciated by our listeners.
Wiggins
Thank you, Myles. It was a pleasure.CORSON
If you’ve enjoyed this or any episode of the Better Finance podcast, please leave a rating or a review and don’t forget to subscribe so you get future episodes. You’ll find related links in the show notes or ey.com/betterfinance.
As always, thank you for listening and if you have ideas or topics you would like to see covered, or guests you’d like to see featured, please don’t hesitate to reach out. I look forward to speaking to you next time on the Better Finance podcast.